Alcohol, Psychedelics, and a 4500-Mile Sahara Run with Charlie Engle
Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and of course, your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardinbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast and habit change expert. Today we're joined with Charlie Engel, who shares his journey from struggling with alcohol to finding healing and sustained recovery through endurance challenges.
Speaker 1:Incredibly, Charlie ran 4,500 miles across the Sahara Desert, which later became a movie produced by Matt Damon. In this episode, we'll explore the importance of community and the potential of alternative treatments for mental health, such as psychedelic assisted therapy. Charlie's story is a vivid illustration of how varied paths can lead to personal transformation. You're gonna wanna listen to hear his craziest endurance adventure yet to date.
Speaker 2:Charlie, thanks for coming. You and I met at the Wonderland Conference in Miami. I got to listen to you on stage, and it was just an inspirational story, so I'm really excited to have you here to share it with everybody. But before we get into all of that, I actually overheard a story about you with Sir Richard Branson, so let's lead it off with kind of what that was all about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, thanks Mike. I appreciate the question and it's great to chat with you. Wonderland was certainly an interesting, eclectic, funky conference. I really enjoyed it. And one of the more kind of interesting talks on stage that I've given just because of the nature of the psychedelic piece.
Speaker 3:So it was really quite interesting though. I gotta tell you real quick
Speaker 2:to cut you off though, that I did not plan on seeing your talk and I just sat in because the stage was open and you walked on. And I have to tell you that it was the best talk of all of the talks that I got to And there were a lot of good ones.
Speaker 3:There were. That means a lot to me, seriously, because it's, you know, I enjoy speaking a lot and I try to, you know, it was an interesting venue because I had been there from the day before and I'd watched a few talks and the stages were kind of big. There were a lot of chairs and not a lot of people and people tended to spread out. So as a speaker, it's weird to look out there and there might be 100 people, but there's 300 chairs. So it feels kind of empty and all of that.
Speaker 3:I'm happy to say that I've been around long enough and I've been doing it long enough to just I remember when my book came out a few years ago, Running Man, and people would I got booked at Barnes and Noble quite a bit and that kind of thing. And I mean, you never knew. Sometimes I would up and there'd be a hundred people, at other times there would be five. And I would really have to just like remind myself that those five people are here and they want to hear what I have to say. And that's, you know, my responsibility is to just do the best I can with the people who are there.
Speaker 3:And, but I so appreciate the fact that you, you, just happened to choose, choose my talk. I'm happy to say I had a few other people come up and chat with me. I think some of why people come up and talk too, in many cases, is because I talk openly about addiction and recovery and it's a thing that affects every family, you know, whether it's the person themselves or a close friend or family member or rarely anybody that doesn't have some exposure to the craziness and chaos that is, you know, being around a person struggling with addiction. And so I think it's a, you know, I try to give it a spin too where people recognize that there's a lot of new technology, there's a lot of hope in psychedelic therapies, there's a lot of things that are happening now that honestly, Charlie Engle of even five years ago would have probably discounted or not taken seriously. And so I think my evolution in that space and my recognition that, you know, abstinence isn't going to work for everybody or AA is not going to work for everybody specifically and that there's a hundred different paths to sobriety, whatever that might mean for someone.
Speaker 3:And it's way more important to save someone's life than to get caught up in the semantics of how they're doing it. But as for this last week, you know, I'm happy to say I just returned. I'm a little foggy right now, but I just returned from South Africa and a week with Richard Branson. My very weird life and lifestyle has led me to some amazing invitations where I've gotten go do some truly meaningful things, meaningful to me and hopefully to others and the planet and humanity in general, not to be too overblown about this, but this was a trip that came about. I've been to Necker Island which is his island in the Virgin Islands a couple of times.
Speaker 3:And as I like to say, I guess I was a good enough guest that when things open up a certain way, I got a chance to go to South Africa. It was beautiful. It was three days in Johannesburg and we visited you know, Nelson Mandela's presidential home, his childhood home, prison, not Robin Island, but the prison where he was kept in Johannesburg for years. And there were, you know, these chips are very heavily focused on philanthropy and on, you know, some sort of good to be done. And, so most every visit we had to a place, there was an opportunity to either give or spread the word or at least offer support of some kind for an amazing nonprofit that was trying to do good.
Speaker 3:So then after that, we got to go, this is a small group of about 10 of us, and we got to go out to Richard Branson's private game reserve called Ulu Saba, which is sort of East of Johannesburg, but in South Africa. And, you know, I've mostly because of my wife. My wife is a very well known wildlife biologist and technically an ornithologist, a bird scientist. So I've gotten to go to some really cool places with her while she's doing her job at a lot of places in Africa and South America. She didn't get to go on this trip, is very disappointing, but it was, even for all the places I've been, I've never seen any place like this.
Speaker 3:They have a professional staff that really knows the animals, the way to take care of them. It's not like going to a zoo or it didn't feel like that crazy chaotic. I don't know if you've ever been like on a whale watching trip. Know, I get stressed out on those because there's a whale and 18 boats are like converging on this one pod of whales and it all feels very stressful. Like I don't actually like that.
Speaker 3:I get it, but I don't like it. Was more casual and laid back and Sir Richard was around most of the time and it's kind of his I've been around him enough that it's kind of his happy place in a way. So he's, you know, he's just he's shirt off, you know, enjoying nature, having casual conversations, telling stories about his own adventures. It's a great place to start our chat because the one thing that Richard Branson has that I talk about a lot, that I think I have to a degree and most of the people I hang out with have is one simple thing, and that's curiosity. Like no matter what, you know, he's in his mid seventies now, he is still immensely curious about nature, about human behavior.
Speaker 3:He's the least curious about business. And, you know, he is well known for dividing his life into one third family, one third business, and one third, let's just call it philanthropy and all the projects that he's got. And he really does an amazing job of being present in that kind of situation, you know, around people who are like, I mean, every time I'm around him, I feel, I'm not really a stargazer particularly, and have had my share of encounters with famous people. But he's a special guy and it was a really great experience and I hope they invite me back.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's awesome. I mean, it's really cool that you just came off of that to this conversation because not only is that a really neat insight, but also it's a fast forward version of where you were many years ago, or you could tell me how many years, but I think it segues into hearing your story. Normally I wouldn't start a podcast and just say, tell me your story, but you have just such a good story that I'm not drawn in by stories as much as I was at the when I heard yours. And so I think, you know, maybe starting at where your struggles were and where it culminated to this point of change transformation. Then talk a little bit about where that went when things started to change.
Speaker 2:So I'll just pass the mic to you really honestly, because I think it's a really great story.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, I appreciate that. Yeah, it was very gratifying also on this trip because Richard Branson actually listened to my book recently, which was an honor that he took the time to do that. It was great to answer questions from Richard Branson about my story. That's amazing. It was very weird.
Speaker 2:And I can relate to that feeling because I actually gave you my book and it was, and I didn't know how you would receive it because there's a lot of philosophies and theory around, you know, specific programs and you're such an open person. I gave it to you and you were so kind, and I mean, you gave me a hug. I thought I was just like, I was just pulling back, I know that feeling.
Speaker 3:Thank you for that. Well, I mean, look, man, you're clearly a very kind, thoughtful person and there was a I live my life on magnetism. I think one thing age has helped me with a lot is the recognition that not is going to, not everybody's going to like me and I'm not going to necessarily be drawn to everyone I meet. But the right people tend to pop up at the right times and I try to pay attention to that and your kindness and willingness to kind of be vulnerable and share your book with me was beautiful. And I mean, I think it's the way we should all be.
Speaker 3:It was clearly an act of kindness and I was very grateful. Look, my story is, I think you said it well, and I'm comfortable in saying to anybody listening to this that I consider it my responsibility to be publicly vulnerable. So I think that that's a thing that's so often missing when you see either social media or people writing their stories or whatever it might be is where we're so insecure about not always looking good or like we're on a path to always knowing what the right answer is. You know, I'm 61 years old and I have plenty of days where I don't feel like I have any answers. I wonder what happened, you know?
Speaker 3:And I do recognize most of the time that that's probably I'm tired or whatever might be going on, and I need to give myself some grace and get a good night's sleep and wake up the next day and probably have a different perspective. For many years in my early life, I struggled with addiction and that came from, to be really blunt, the path to that, my view of the path to addiction is really changing even in this moment. I assumed because I was a fourth generation addict, I grew up around this stuff, the environment, genetics, and this sort of mantra in AA, and by no means am I giving AA a hard time when I say this, but like the disease pathology of addiction is often accepted as absolute and true. And again, I'm not saying that addiction is not a disease, but I do also really believe that there's so much intense negative language around what we are and labelling ourselves as a particular thing that it becomes partially a self fulfilling prophecy. I spent so many years calling myself an addict and saying things like, I'm still an addict, I'm just not using.
Speaker 3:And that's not true today. And it took a man named Gabramate to really bring my attention to that. And for anyone listening to this, if you don't know who he is, then you need to,
Speaker 2:he He's incredible.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I got a chance, he's another relationship. I got to meet him a couple of times in person and we became friends and we had some amazing conversations And I began to understand the nature of my own trauma from an early age and how that actually set the stage for me to become somebody that struggled with alcohol and drugs. And so, And again, the reason it changes my own personal dialogue and what I say to myself is that I've come to recognise that I can heal those traumas in ways that I never thought was possible. We can discuss that maybe a little later, but if you can't recognise it and sort of give yourself an open mind to think about the origins of behaviours and things that are, then you're never gonna find any answers.
Speaker 3:You might get better. I mean, again, a lot of people get better, and I found for me AA and abstinence and all of that got me better for a very long time. And then I sort of hit a point, even with all my running and the things I was doing, where I just wasn't getting better. I wasn't necessarily getting worse, but back to Richard Branson and curiosity, I want to keep making steps forward and learning more and not be settled in one place. And I think the age, I'm going to get to the story in second, but I think the skewing of addiction, especially in The United States, and the overdose deaths that are taking place every day, primarily in 30 and under age group, is indicative of the fact that people are dying quickly because they're not really even becoming addicts.
Speaker 3:They're accidentally, you know, ingesting fentanyl or maybe it's on purpose sometimes, but a lot of these overdoses and all these things are happening because of the illicit drug trade, especially around fentanyl and tranq and some of these other just deadly drugs that I didn't have to deal with 30 ago when I was an addict. At that time for me, so in high school, look, I was that guy who overachieved in everything. A lot of that was because I was desperate for my father's love. I mean, some of it's kind of cliche, but it's the truth. I had a very difficult, hard relationship with my father.
Speaker 3:I was an only child and my parents were divorced super early and I moved in with him as a teenager and he just wasn't the kind of guy to come to games or to tell me I did a good job. I was student body president, captain of five teams, top 10 in my class, the first white student body president in majority black high school in North Carolina. I mean, I accomplished some cool things and things that I was proud of, but I never heard that from him. And I go to UNC Chapel Hill and I think that I'm going to be this badass, amazing superstar on a college campus too. And of course it took me like three days to figure out that I was unbelievably average and that like every other freshman on that campus had basically some version of the same resume I had.
Speaker 3:And, you know, and I got lost in alcohol and cocaine. It was the eighties, which is, I always refer to as the cocaine decade. And it's still prevalent today, not, I mean, that was really the Miami Vice, you know, that was the time. You know, and I basically spent ten years, you know, fighting this battle of, again, kind of overachieving in my normal life. I flunked out of college, which doesn't sound like overachieving, but I then went on to get, I would sell fitness memberships or I'd sell cars, or whatever it was I was selling, would literally be the best in the country at it.
Speaker 3:You know, I would celebrate my success and, you know, shit can the whole thing because one celebration for me would lead to months of going down this deep abyss and I had moved somewhere else and start over again. You know, and I found my way into sobriety, you know, partly because my first son was born. Know, during that time I got married, I bought a house, I did all the things that I thought, you know, surely I couldn't be an addict if I was doing these things. And that's not the case, of course, but, you know, my first son was born and then when he was born, I thought that that just in and of itself would cause me to quit, you know, that surely if I was a decent person and wanted to be a good father that I could just cut it off and be done with it. So clearly I still didn't know what the hell I was talking about because it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 3:A couple months into his life, I found myself in the same pit of hell. I recognised in that moment that I really did have a choice to make between living and dying, like it was that serious. And I chose running, or as I like to say, you know, for a lot of people that probably is the same as dying, but, you know, I had been a runner in high school and even during my ten years of addiction, you know, I'd go through phases where I cleaned up and I'd use running as a tool to sort of get healthy again. So I knew what it felt like to run. And, you know, I committed to going to an AA meeting every day and going for a run every single day and just seeing where that would lead me in my life.
Speaker 3:And I ended up doing those two things for three straight years without missing a day. I went to a meeting and I went for a run every day. And I ran over 30 marathons in that time period. And the joke I always tell is, of course, obviously I had that whole addiction thing under control, because I just, you know, I needed to feed this thing. Like I, but I was in this early phase of being really excited about running and traveling around the country and even to other countries to run marathons.
Speaker 3:And I think what I figured out in my 20s or my 30s really after I got sober was the community was the answer. And I'm, you know, certainly not the first person to come up with that. But for me, I had a sober community and I had a running community and there were a lot of sober runners also. And I just found really deep power in that fellowship and being able to share these experiences with people. And I mean, I truly believe that that's what kept me sober.
Speaker 3:Just staying sober during those early years was the most important thing and not getting caught up in, know, was I progressing better than somebody else or did I have, you know, I don't know, whatever it might be. I really just, man, I flourished. Life got so much better. I'll I'll I'll go through this quickly and then you can you can backtrack and ask me questions. But I you know, life got much better.
Speaker 3:I became the senior producer for a TV show called Extreme Makeover Home Edition. And for a while I became, you know, I mean, it's a difficult thing to quantify, but I became in some people's view the top ultra distance runner in the world for a little while. And I mean, look, that's a that's a very subjective thing because there's there's trail, there's road, there's mountains, there's there's every terrain and, like, you know, every there's gonna be different opinions. But anyway, I managed to do well in some really big races for a while. Then I ended up getting this crazy idea to run across the Sahara Desert and partnered with Matt Damon and made a really interesting, beautiful film about running across the Sahara.
Speaker 3:Then I ended up going to prison, which was certainly an unplanned, as I like to call it, federal holiday. And that's another, you know, it's another complicated story. All this stuff is in my book and it's on my website. But, you know, in short, a very unfair thing happened to me. And it really, as I like to say now, it destroyed the life that I had.
Speaker 3:It didn't destroy my life because there's only one person that can do that and that's me. Know, I mean nobody else can actually own my feelings and my happiness. And this was the biggest test I had ever had of that though because it was humiliating and embarrassing and, you know, there was a lot to it, which, again, I'm happy to talk about it or not, it doesn't matter. But I don't shy away from it because I think the, you know, for listeners, the thing that I can say more than anything, and I truly believe this, is if you don't own your narrative, somebody else will. You know, if you don't have some haters, then you're not trying hard enough.
Speaker 3:Like if there's not some people out there that are gonna kind of zero in on you, then you're probably really playing it safe. And, you know, for me, that's just, I'm not interested in that. So I'd rather speak my mind and hopefully do it with kindness and self reflection that recognizes my own shortcomings but also doesn't mean I have to like fall on my sword every other day. And you know, I mean, we're all just human and I think most are just doing the best they can And we do get caught up in, well, here's the other thing I tell groups all the time, especially young groups. I'm like, nobody gives a shit about yourself.
Speaker 3:I mean, actually nobody even care, like they care for about a minute. And we think of course when we screw up or when something happens, like everybody's looking at us and talking about us and they're not, they're not. Like for five seconds, maybe they are, but beyond that, they go back to being self centered and self focused because that's the way we're all built. And so again, my hope is that when I tell stories, there's enough vulnerability in the stories to encourage other people to recognize that if they talk about their hardships, especially with their kids, like I grew up in a house where my dad never told me anything about his early life, and only much, much later did I find out that he struggled. You know, he got kicked off the basketball team when he was young for drinking.
Speaker 3:He got like all these lessons that when I was struggling, if he was a different guy, he could have come to me and said, Hey, you know, I know you're struggling. I know things are bad, but here's what happened to me and, you know, you'll get through this. Like I just, I didn't have that role model. And I want to be that for other people and just to remind them that the vast majority of even the worst things that happen to us, even our self inflicted wounds, aren't really all that important. They feel like they are.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You know, but those moments, those terrible moments will typically pass by, you know, if we just allow them to. And so now, you know, look, I still run, I still, you know, I bike, I have big goals, things that I still want to accomplish in the adventure world. More than anything right now, I want to accomplish things in my personal growth world and I wanna help other people find their path to personal growth through coaching and through experiences. And I think that people are very open to exploration these days, you know, maybe more than ever, or at least a subset are.
Speaker 3:You know, I think I saw this stat, and I'm gonna let you ask me questions, I saw this stat a day or two ago that just kind of blew my mind. Actually, someone told me, but I did look it up and verify it, but like 75 of Americans don't have a passport. That statistic really hit me hard because generally speaking, people have such strong opinions, and I don't want to pick on one side or the other, but generally speaking, people have very strong opinions about other countries, other people, other lifestyles, other things. And the fact of the matter is the vast majority of them have never seen it in person, whatever that lifestyle might be, They've never been to that country. They don't know anything about the people.
Speaker 3:They're simply parroting other people that are in their tribe, you know, about the way the world is. And I have to remind myself constantly that my way through this lifetime is to see as many people and places as I can before I'm done. And pretty much every single time I'm blown away by the kindness and generosity and hope and vulnerability of the people that I encounter. And any preconceived notions, I try not to have those, but some are just human nature. You can't help it.
Speaker 3:Even going to South Africa, I expected certain things. Certain people, even if they're kind to me, I thought, well, I wonder if, you know, it's prime, it's a majority black country and obviously most people know the history of South Africa and it's a very difficult and recent history. Man, people could not have been nicer to me. I mean, everybody, black, white, whatever, Indian, and it was just again that reminder of we're all just trying do our best and muddle through this thing and learn as much as we can and hopefully not make the same mistakes. So, all right, I'll end it there for the time being and let you dive in, Mike.
Speaker 2:No, not at all. I could sit here and listen to you go off on whatever subject you want to talk but I think I couldn't be more in line with you as far as the travel goes because if you have the opportunity to go, the world is your classroom, you know, and I really try to instill that in my kids as well. You you go see museums, you talk to people, you stay in places long enough that you know how they live and you just don't go to a hotel, you know, and maybe the hotel beach and restaurant, get out and you talk to people and see how other people live. You know, I'd love to get into all the adventure stuff that you've done, which is really cool, but I actually think that we should have a conversation because it's even more interesting because you have a specialized kind of experience around your relationship with alcohol or the previous relationship with alcohol, and it seems like you have an evolving view of that these days. And, you know, for me, AA works for a lot of people.
Speaker 2:I didn't feel like it was for me, and I know that a lot of people probably that should be an AA will say something like that, but it didn't really speak to me, the label part. I didn't really see myself as an alcoholic, neither did my wife, but I did have this problem. It was problematic, I'd say. It was wine in the evenings, like, I wake up in the morning, I go for a run, even if I was hungover, it didn't matter, and I'd be highly productive all day, but I just had this, after grad school, this habit that just built and built, and I didn't really understand a clear path to stopping it. Know, I would stop for thirty days and then I'd kind of be back where I was again.
Speaker 2:And so I kind of felt like at this place where, what do I do? Do I reduce? Do I quit forever? And I think that that's a difficult thing, and it's a hard ask for people. It's an all or nothing, right?
Speaker 3:If you
Speaker 2:want to change your habits with alcohol or make a drastic change, you just got to stop and it's going to be forever. So there's this more recent and modern view that people are taking around mindful drinking, which is really being mindful about how much and how often you're drinking alcohol. Mindful drinking could actually be like you're reducing. It could be you're taking a break, an extended break. It could be, hey, I just intend to stop and I'm going to be mindful about how that path looks.
Speaker 2:What is causing your view, I would say, to evolve a little bit around where you started, what you went through and how you see it now?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it's complex, but it's also simple, you know, the way many things are. Like there's, you know, the question that I ask all the time of anyone, because very often people will approach me after a talk or maybe they'll write an email and they'll say, you know, I'm concerned that I'm an alcoholic and I'm trying to figure out if I am or not. And I, you know, I typically will write back or if we're in person, I'll just say that I don't actually think that that's the right question. Because I don't think it's particularly relevant to necessarily make that decision as much as it is to ask yourself, how is this behaviour serving me? You know, that is to me a much more clarifying question.
Speaker 3:How are these two drinks every night serving me or these 10 drinks every night serving me? Or maybe I don't drink during the week, but I drink 10 drinks on Saturday night or whatever. So if you average it out over a week, it's only a drink and a half a day. Like there's all kinds of rationalizations, justifications. And the fact of the matter is it's up to that individual person to ask the question, how is this behavior serving me?
Speaker 3:And I do think the other thing that, man, it seems like every day I see another study, whether it's Huberman or Peter Attia or one of these docs out there who are very well known in the medical space, essentially just talking about the effects of alcohol, even one or two drinks a day, and how much it actually affects your body and your mind negatively. So now, saying all of that is irrelevant to the person whose body is now accustomed to drinking, you know, a six pack a day or, you know, a pint of booze or more, you know, every day and there becomes that physiological need for it. That to me is true genuine alcoholism. For me as an alcoholic it rarely manifested in big problems. I mean, it would have eventually, but for me, and I feel lucky, you know, I called it the cocaine decade and I really liked cocaine.
Speaker 3:And the amount of cocaine, I mean, I even, I tell, look, I tell a lot of jokes that are, you know, some people every once in a while, somehow get offended and I'm like, look, man, the subject matter is already serious enough and you just can't stay in that serious place all the time about this stuff. So I used to say that I would go to AA meetings, primarily because I wanted to learn how to control my drinking because it was really screwing up my drug use, you know, and the drugs I was doing are very expensive and I got tired of wasting drugs, you know, because of my drinking. And look, so that's a, just a lighthearted comment on a serious subject, but, okay. AA for me early on, it offered a community foundation. And the 12 Steps are great and you could apply the 12 Steps, you know, theoretically to anything in your life, right?
Speaker 3:Whether it was smoking or, you know, porn or gambling or anything like, and there are programs, 12 step programs for all of those things. But like the 12 steps as a concept is very, is great, I think. The dogma that is attached to AA these days is it became something that I just struggled with. And I just, I found that I, I don't want to say I grew beyond it because that seems unappreciative. AA served a purpose for me for the right amount of time, whatever that was.
Speaker 3:And I still, like I was just saying to my wife that I'm speaking in a virtual AA meeting on New Year's Eve, a big one. And I still, it's not like I've stopped being a participant in AA, but I have expanded my horizons. And what I really focus on is community. I want to be part of things that people will notice if I'm not there anymore. And maybe someone will call and check on me and say, Hey, what's going on?
Speaker 3:Or, you know, How are you? Are things okay? Or whatever. Because I think that is the strength, you know, the program is being able to talk to people. Before COVID, I also would have told you no fricking way that virtual meetings would ever be all that important.
Speaker 3:And now of course I can admit when I'm wrong. Was certainly wrong about that one. You know, I love like this meeting I'm going to do on New Year's Eve. I mean, there'll probably be people from, I don't know how many countries, you know, on this call. And that is a cool thing.
Speaker 3:Do I prefer being in person with people? I mean, yes, that's a cool thing. Giving people hugs, like, you know, all of that human contact is great, but the reach that the virtual world of course offers us is huge. And I think a lot of people can heal with that. So I would also say that, you know, my eyes have been opened to, I mean, you and I were at a psychedelic, you know, wonderland is a psychedelic conference, and it was primarily focused on psychedelic legislature.
Speaker 3:You know, there was a lot of legal stuff going on. There was a lot of, but then there was also the, as I jokingly say, the more woo woo side about the whole space. And I love the variety of the different talks and the expertise that was there. And what I really say about this space for me is that it has opened my eye, first of all, you know, the number of people who are dying needlessly, that don't need to be dying these days, I think could go, that number could go down dramatically if psychedelic, I should say when psychedelic therapies are legalized on a broad scale. And once again, just like with travel, people make judgments about things that they don't know anything about because there's that knee jerk reaction.
Speaker 3:You know, what I am talking about when I talk about the use of psychedelics, I'm talking about a ton of pre work. In other words, why am I doing this? What's its purpose? What do I hope to get out of it? And that's with a professional.
Speaker 3:Then it's the actual experience, you know, whatever that might be, you know, psilocybin, ketamine, you know, MDMA, whatever that substance might be, and then it's an intense amount of work after the fact, integration. So when I say psychedelic therapy, I am definitely not talking about, you know, getting some mushrooms from, you know, your buddy and having a chill night listening to music. I mean, I'm not saying that that can't be therapeutic for some people, but generally speaking, when someone is new into recovery and they're trying to get their feet under them and stop an unwanted habit, it needs to be done with the help of a professional. And so that has really, really changed my view. I, you know, am totally, you know, free, you know, careful but generally free about saying, you know, I've had a few experiences myself now.
Speaker 3:And the biggest difference is none of the experiences that I've had have led me to like wake up the next day, I don't want to do it again. I mean, first of all, some of them have been very hard,
Speaker 2:you know?
Speaker 3:Yes. So it's not what, yeah, it's not what people might imagine. I didn't, you know, while there's some pleasantness to the experience, if it's deep therapy, very often it's going to be fairly difficult. But, you know, I think the progress I've made in my own recovery from the traumas that have happened to me in my life has been exponentially deeper and quite frankly, faster, you know? I feel like the very first big experience I had, I did five years of therapy in six hours.
Speaker 3:And I mean, I really mean that. Like that's not hyperbole, that is specifically how I feel and the proof is in the people around me. My wife, my children who are grown, you know, they're adults. You know, the big, my favourite saying in AA all those years is attraction rather than promotion. And I believe that that holds true in all things.
Speaker 3:You don't have any experience out there in the world and spend your time just talking about it nonstop to other people because that's not how you, you know, if you have genuinely changed and you feel different and seem like people will notice that. You just have to be open to letting them see it. That's attraction. Promotion is turning it around and saying, Oh my God, you have to try this. You have to do this.
Speaker 3:You got to do Like, I stay away from that. I am only talking about me and my experience. Somebody has a specific question and they want to reach out to me and ask it, I'm all ears and I'll share anything I have to share.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah, that shows maturity and respect for it because I think when somebody maybe first has one of those experiences, their first reaction is, Oh my God, I got to tell everybody in the world they got to do this. But
Speaker 3:AA was the same way, right? I mean, AA was the same way. You first get sober and they call it a pink cloud in AA. Like you want to go out and pull your friends out of the bar and tell them to get sober too. Like you found this new amazing thing and they're like, you know, piss off.
Speaker 3:Don't want,
Speaker 2:you know,
Speaker 3:they will come to your way of seeing it if they observe you over a period of time and they see you better and as a different person.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, but then you got to reel it in, right? You got to be responsible and you got to know that like when somebody needs that they'll come to you and ask, and that's what you should do is provide the information and the support when they come to you. And I thought that you probably took notice to this at the conference, there were quite a bit of talks that were given by people in the medical community with evidence supporting, specifically to the reduction of alcohol in very convincing ways.
Speaker 2:Like, for example, there was one study, don't quote me on the percentages, but I think I'm pretty close, is that they gave two doses six weeks apart for people that had alcohol use disorder and they reported around, I think it was fifty four percent of their days were spent heavy drinking days. And after the six months, or after the six weeks, they started tracking them for six months and that reduced to, I believe it was fourteen percent days heavy drinking. So quite a significant reduction and that goes across multiple medicines. I mean, there's a lot of studies that are coming out with very promising data that shows that this stuff does work for not only that, but just mental health in general. I mean, I think, what do you think about that?
Speaker 2:You feel pretty strongly that those are going in the right Well
Speaker 3:look at veterans groups, you know, and there was a study out of Harvard recently that was a very, very controlled, double blind type of study where they did, basically they studied antidepressants, so your more traditional SSRIs as they're called, serotonin reuptake inhibitors, so SSRIs and therapy versus two doses of psilocybin seven to ten days apart, fairly high dose, obviously under the care of a therapist. So those two doses and therapy. So you got SSRIs and therapy, psilocybin and therapy. And the psilocybin and therapy was seventy percent, seven zero percent more effective over the course of a year than the SSRIs and therapy. And if you've ever taken an SSRI, which I have, you know, you have all kinds of other side effects.
Speaker 3:You know, you're flattened out, you have sexual dysfunction, you got all kinds of negative, yes, maybe you don't want to kill yourself every day and certainly there's some benefits to it. I'm not saying, you know, that that's not an alternative, at least in the short term, but what would you rather do? You know, these two doses of psilocybin and then have to take nothing for, you know, six months to a year or have to take an SSRI every single day, you know, for the year. And the veterans groups I work with, you know, and I, look, try not to be overly provocative, but sometimes I just can't help myself. And someone will challenge me once in a while.
Speaker 3:It's like, oh, well, you know, that's a slippery slope right there. You know, you get, get these people struggling with alcohol or whatever, now you're going to give them drugs. I'm like, Look, man, if you don't know anything about suicide and veterans, you should do some research. And I'm pretty sure, you know, that a couple doses of psilocybin is better than sticking a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger, you know. And so if I can be a help to intervene in what's going on in a veteran's life, where they're taking their lives every single day at an astounding rate, then I'm going to advocate for that no matter what anybody else says.
Speaker 3:And nobody ever died of a psilocybin overdose, you know, I mean, it's just, it's ignorance and fear. It's big pharma and lobbyists, I'm not a conspiracy theory guy in general, but you know, almost always in any of these things, all you have to do is ask yourself or whatever, ask out loud, who benefits from keeping things status quo? And you can pretty much point to three or four players that are benefiting greatly from the way things are, Criminal justice, prisons, jails, hospitals, big pharma, like they all benefit incredibly by things staying exactly the way they are. It's an open blank checkbook and it's a never ending money pipeline to them. And so if other methodologies of getting better and getting healthier and getting well and getting sober, if those things become the prevailing methodology, it's going to cost them a lot of money.
Speaker 3:And, you know, I make no bones about it. That's the nature of the industry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. There's a difference between ongoing treatment or masking of symptoms versus, you know, getting to a cure or a solution. And you know, like that hits home, especially with the veterans, because my father was a Vietnam Veteran who saw a lot of action. So I grew up in a home where PTSD greatly affected the house. And I think back and I wonder if these treatments were available to him, how different his life would have been as far as the happiness factor and how that trickles down generationally.
Speaker 2:And that's actually how you can change the world one generation at a time that then spreads out across their children, their children's children, and so on. And that's why I actually do feel that these medicines can change the world in that way. And you know what, this is a probably unfair question to you, but you know, so you have these things like psilocybin that are helping people in multitude of ways, in different stages of where they are in that journey, whether they're just kind of starting on some difficulties or they're deep down into it. And around the alcohol, with the mindfulness, you know, having things like Sunnyside where potentially alcohol has not become a problem for you, but you want to change your relationship with it, it be for health, it be for performance and clarity, maybe you want to sleep better, there's a lot of different reasons or it just doesn't feel right to you but you don't have a straightforward solution in the past potentially, because it was pretty much AA and not to pick on AA, but it just that was the go to. Now there's a lot of solutions in different spectrums because people might be just starting with their drinking and they want to get ahold of it early.
Speaker 2:Do you think in your life things could have looked a little different had you had more resources at that time?
Speaker 3:I mean, no doubt about it, you know. Now, I'm going to dive deep into philosophy here in just a second because you'll have to excuse me, but I am also a, you know, I look at the universe and I look at my own life these days and I am fully believing in the simple idea that my path was my path and the universe has led me to this place. And I had to have all of these hard experiences in order to be the person that I am, hopefully be useful not only to myself and my family, but to other people out there. And had I gotten maybe a quote unquote easier or more effective solution earlier in my life, you know, may have sent me down a different path and maybe that would have been the right one. But so what I don't do is spend a whole lot of time, you know, wondering what could have been, and I spend tons of time being grateful for the fact that I get to be here.
Speaker 3:Know, as a younger person, if I'd had a lot of this information, I may have been too self conscious to actually convey it openly to other people. And I'm still a young person, but I am 61. I'm young 61 and I could absolutely give a shit if somebody has a problem with, you know, me or what I'm saying. I mean, I'm always open to a debate or a discussion or, you know, that type of open dialogue. But in general, I really do mean it when I say Just like being open about my own therapies that used in the last couple of years.
Speaker 3:I know I'm going to get the occasional note from somebody telling me, Oh, well, you're not sober anymore. If you've done psilocybin, you're not sober anymore. And I'm like, Well, F you, honestly, because I actually don't care what you say and I know the difference. I know what sobriety is and I'm more sober today even than I was during my early years of not drinking. Like those are very different things.
Speaker 3:And so it's, and what, you know, I'll tell you the truth, I've even gotten to a place in recent years that I am, certainly I'm not embarrassed, that would be a silly way to put it, but about the number of years I've been sober. But most people can't relate to thirty one years sober, right? Me and most people. I mean most people don't, for whatever reason, they, I don't know. I'm sure there's tons of us out there, but that's a big number.
Speaker 3:So somebody new in sobriety, I actually think it's not helpful for them to hear that number because it sounds so impossible. So I really do, I hate to be like too cliche here, but I really do focus on the one day at a time. Like, you know, we have the same amount of sobriety today, right? And like it's, when people get a year or two years or five years and then they relapse and the AA model takes them back to zero as if they are truly starting over, I think that is deeply damaging to that And, you know, it's humiliating. It's, you know, okay, yeah, if you've been sober for five years and you had one week of that time that you drank and now all of a sudden you're at zero again, it just, you know, I think a lot of people end up not getting sober again or their lives end up falling apart and they go back down this really terrible path because of the shame associated with having relapsed.
Speaker 3:I don't know what good that does anybody.
Speaker 2:I 100% agree with that because there are a few things to that point. Number one, science sort of says that in AA we'll call it addiction, in other things that you're doing we'll call it habit change, but if you've sustained long habit change over a period of time and have one or two slips ups, they say that that doesn't affect your path to actually forming the new habit and sustaining the new habit. Taking that hard line on having to start back at zero like nothing has been done, do think it can be damaging. And in the term of, you know, we're getting ready to do dry January, depending on whenever somebody listens to this, but they call it dry ish January because the the goal is to get is I stick to a schedule that that you set out to to do. So it might be to make it all thirty days, but let's say you only make it a week and you know something happens.
Speaker 2:You're at a party and you get stressed out and decide to have a drink, well I think typically on a New Year's resolution thing, well I already screwed it up, so let's just throw that out the and go off to the races. But if you give yourself that grace to say, No, I haven't erased what I've done. I already have a week down. I've got three weeks to go. I'll give myself grace today and start back tomorrow, and, you know, I think that puts you on a path to positivity versus a potential setback.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Look, I agree with all that you just said. You know, I will say that for me, you know, when I finally got sober at 29, you know, I'd been to rehab when I was 25 and it had been this long progression of me reaching a point where I finally just decided I can't do this anymore. And that's gonna be a different path for everybody. And I do believe that, I mean, it's funny, somebody asked me recently if I, you know, couldn't I just have, and I've gotten this question a lot in my life, like, couldn't you just have one beer or one glass of wine, like with dinner?
Speaker 3:And I'm like, you know, yeah, I probably could. I mean, almost certainly in fact, especially being put on the spot, like if it was a big dinner and I drank a glass of wine, which I haven't for thirty one years, but if I did, I'd probably, you know, I'd probably be fine. I could probably do that again the next night. I might be able to do that every single night for a year. But what I do know for me is I absolutely would have that second glass eventually.
Speaker 3:And then I would have the third. So for me, what I know for sure is that it would lead me to a place where I would eventually want more, and that would probably lead me to, you know, potentially reconsidering my relationship with drugs like cocaine, which isn't, you know, I see a value in that for anyone, particularly. So while I certainly I agree with you in theory on everything that you said, but what I really get at for people is that, because you said one very important, you said several very important things, but one really stood out to me. Although now I've already forgotten the word that you used. Like let's say you go to a party New Year's Eve and you're, did you say you're uncomfortably?
Speaker 3:Just
Speaker 2:stressed out or
Speaker 3:Just out, there we go. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, that's the criteria then in a way for the way we're framing this. What is the source of that stress?
Speaker 3:Is it because you're at a party with other people who are drinking and they look like they're having a much better time than you are having. I mean, there's layers There's complexities in what is causing the stress. And I do think that a lot of that can be on the flip side of it, having the sort of experiment of going to a party, like a New Year's Eve party, not drinking, you know, drinking a mocktail, maybe doing some breath work before you go. I would tell people all the time too, like, you know, drive your own car since you're not drinking. Drive your car so that you can leave whenever you want.
Speaker 3:Because I'll be honest with you, the one thing that I'm least likely to do in my life these days is hang around a bunch of drunk people because it's so not interesting to me. And, and I, and I think back about, oh my God, was I that guy? And I know that not only was I that guy, I was probably worse than that guy. And like the worst place to ever be as a sober person around a bunch of people who are really drunk. People just having a cocktail, which is what most of life is.
Speaker 3:I go to tons of parties. I go to lots of events and alcohol is always part of those, you know, pretty much. So I don't have any problem with it by being around it. So I don't know if I just talked in a big circle, but I guess the point is, like everything else, it does have to come down to being an individual decision. And if you're not dealing with a professional or a mentor or someone who can offer some guidance and it's all just this twisty turny stuff going on in your own brain and you're your own counselor, that's not a good place to be.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Like this is therapy right here. Like you and I having this conversation, saying these things out loud, put them in the light of day and there is no, like, you know it when you see it. Like if you decide to have a glass of wine tonight and you haven't had one for a while, you sort of know as you're having it or after whether or not like it's feeding the part of you that you want to feed. And it might be, you know, it might be, but I will say that it all, in my view, it does all come down to community.
Speaker 3:What I recognised in myself, back to Gabber Mate, is that when I was a child, I was an only child, My mom was 18. I grew up in a very adult world and I was a very lonely child. So it's actually not surprising that when I got old enough to drink, I found huge comfort in alcohol. Like it was just, it was like being wrapped in a warm blanket and I felt like I wasn't different and I wasn't lonely. You know, and that's, I know for sure that that's why I went down that path.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I'm not a lonely person these days. I mean, I'm lonely sometimes, we all are, but you know, I'm in general, I don't have that issue. So does that mean that I could actually drink like a normal person? Maybe, but I don't have any, like for me at this point in my life, I don't have any desire to do that, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you said that, you know, can you have a normal, can you have a drink? And for you, I just thought, why? What would be the benefit to you at this point? Whereas like, maybe somebody that is drinking three glasses of wine three times a week and says I want to reduce to two, I still enjoy it, it still gives me a little bit of good feeling when I just drink two or one, and for that person, there might be benefit to keep it because it makes, they just enjoy the taste and they enjoy maybe gathering around it or whatever the personal reason, there might be some benefit there without the downside on the other side, other than they just want to do a little bit better. And so I think you would, you agree in that it's just, it's highly personalised and there's And
Speaker 3:look, make no mistake, Mike, alcohol saved my life when I was drinking. I was lonely and in a lot of pain. And if it were not for drinking, I might've killed myself. I acknowledge that alcohol kind of does what it's supposed to do for a person during a time when they can't find another path to having some relief, whatever that might look like in their For some of us though, it then crosses that line where it's no longer relief and it actually becomes the source of the stress in and of itself. No longer relieving the stress, it is the stressful thing.
Speaker 3:And when that happens, you know, we have to examine how, you know, we can make a change. And, you know, look, I work with Ashley Addiction Treatment Center up in Maryland, and I think that they are the best alcohol addiction treatment center in the country. And it is a primarily abstinence based 12 step treatment center, you know, sort of a traditional rehab, although a really, really good one. But what I love about them and the reason that I work with them is that they are open to every idea. You know what I mean?
Speaker 3:Like they're open to any kind of therapy if science says that it's going to work. I mean, you got Johns Hopkins and Harvard and a lot of amazing academic facilities that are doing great research. You've got maps, which you're aware of, of course, doing tons of research. And, you know, so to me, the best treatment centers and therapy centers like Ashley are open to seeing where this can go. It's also medication assisted.
Speaker 3:So it's whatever that so it can be medication assisted. I guess that's the point. So if there needs to be medication accompanying your letting go of this bad habit that you want to get rid of, then that's part of it. And the best part of it is that it's, you know, HIPAA compliant, it's insurance covered, and you know, so people can actually, you know, get help. You and I both know the stats.
Speaker 3:You know, there's four million people that actually go to rehab every year in The US, but there's forty million people that actually need help of some kind. So, and then of the four million that actually get help, you know, unfortunately a large percentage of them don't, they aren't successful in that, you know, it takes repeat visits or rehabs or whatever. I mean, the system is just, it needs to keep improving and not just stay in that static place where it's been for so many years. Places like Ashley, they've got their eyes open, It's nonprofit, doesn't mean they don't need to make money because it's a very expensive industry, but it's, you know, their focus is on if there's another idea out there that can help their patients get better, then they're going to listen and they're going to try to see if they can do some research on it themselves. I think that's the mindset that we all need to have going forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. I mean the way I look at it is the more viable solutions that are out there that can serve people depending on where they are. They might be early on to a path that's going to turn bad and there's solutions early on that would relate to them. It hasn't become problematic, but it might be. There are people that are just wanting to reduce.
Speaker 2:There should be solutions for that also. There are people that don't identify with the traditional roots and there should be solutions for them. Whether or not it's a program, whether it's just a group, whether it's a book, whether it's an app, I think that it's just such a complex problem or just a complex issue that the more good information and solutions out there, the healthier the population will be.
Speaker 3:And we've never look, man, we've we all know this, but I mean, we've never been more disconnected while being unbelievably connected, right? So we're technologically connected with each other, yet in person and in a loving kind way we are less connected than ever. And I think that that's going to continue to inform these numbers that we're talking about. Alcoholism and deaths from alcohol have, you know, if we were really worried so much, all we hear about is fentanyl and this terrible problem and everything else, but I mean, we're still talking about a tiny fraction of people dying from that every year as compared to alcohol consumption. So I also don't want to not acknowledge the sheer, I don't even know what the number is now, but the number that sticks in my head is something like half a million Americans die every year as a direct result of, you know, of over consuming alcohol.
Speaker 3:And that can be obviously, that can take all kinds of forms and the number's probably, you know, higher. But I think that the, the real issue is loneliness and disconnectedness and hopelessness. And my hope is that in particular you know, your demographic, your age and younger will try to find ways to build community even in the face of even more technology. And it's a hard balance to really find. But I'll come back to sort of the beginning of the conversation.
Speaker 3:To me, travel, nature. You don't have to go do crazy adventures maybe like I've done, but you know if you're not getting out with other people that you care for and going for a hike on the weekends or, you know, out in nature and breathing fresh air. And those are the greatest healing methodologies that exist today that have always existed for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, there's nothing more natural than nature. And even if you're not an outdoors person, it's hard to not feel good when you get out and just spend some time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, everybody's an outdoor person. I always ask audiences, know, or I tend to ask them, you know, okay, who here, let's get one thing out of the way, who hates running? Half the audience will raise their, two thirds of the audience, even running groups, half the people will raise their hands and I'm like, Oh, so you like, you hate fresh air and you hate birds and you hate, you know, and you know, and I remind people that it's not running they hate, it's the discomfort associated with running that they dislike. That may sound like splitting hairs, you know, I tell people all the time, like, okay, go for a walk. I mean, I've even, I've still got a therapist these days and I always will have one, somebody that I trust that I want to talk to from time to time.
Speaker 3:And one of the deals I have with my therapist is we schedule it where she and I are both going for a walk. We're not together, rarely, but even in our own location I'll head out the door, she'll head out the door and we'll have our hour long conversation while we're walking, while we're moving our bodies. And like the brain works better, the body feels better, like everything about that process is just more open, I believe. And so in this coming year, I would certainly continue to advocate for what I've always advocated for. Be gentle with yourself but stick to the commitment, especially if exercise and being outdoors is part of your commitment.
Speaker 3:You know, that is the best way. It's the best way to gain perspective on the habits that may not be serving you anymore. It's the best way to keep your body and your mind healthy. It's it's the best way to deal with stress. It's it's a fix all.
Speaker 3:Know, I do a lot of work in the longevity world and some of the folks I work with, you know, offer very expensive and effective methodologies, stem cells, other things like that. And they're absolutely amazing. But I always tell people, look, you're not, let me save you some money. If you're not going for a walk at least five days a week, just for thirty minutes a day, that will add ten years to your life. So if you want longevity, just do that one simple thing and that will dramatically increase your lifespan, your health span, reduce your biological age.
Speaker 3:It'll do all the things you want. And then if you want to do that and you then want to, you've got the money to be able to get some other really wonderful treatments, then by all means do that. But, you know, we're all on this journey together of exploration and I think part of it is not being too hard on yourself. You know, we all fall short at times and in alcohol space, you know, it's not just one path towards a healthier, better life.
Speaker 2:I love that, and I do think, as somebody that does it myself, being too hard on yourself and giving yourself grace is really important. And I think that this is a really good point to end on a high note because it's a perfect fast forward culmination of all the things that we kind of went through and where you were and where you are now. You're getting ready to go on, or prepping at least, to go on this big adventure. Why don't you share that before we close out? Because I think it's incredible.
Speaker 3:You. Well, and it's been a long time in the making and I've had to be patient. You know, I was very close the first year of COVID to having all the funding for this project and everything in place. And of course, you know, my plans along with the plans of almost everybody else on the planet pretty much went out the window for a couple of years. But, you know, in essence, I like to say that my journey, like your journey and most everyone listening to this, has been this never ending cycle of low places and high points.
Speaker 3:You know, when I teach my kids, I mean, again, my kids are grown now, but like they've heard me say this for their entire lives. And that is, you know, never make a big decision at a low moment or at a high moment because that moment's going to pass, you know, you're, you know, don't, to like at a low moment, quit your job or leave your marriage or relapse or whatever it might be. You may still choose to do that thing the next day or the next week or whatever. But typically if we can just get past that minute, get a good night's sleep, wake up the next day, we're going to have a little bit different perspective. It might ultimately lead to the same path.
Speaker 3:Flip side of that is, you know, you get the promotion or you get some bonus or whatever, know, don't go buy the fancy car or the, don't also go because that also, those are short lived experiences. So what I why that relates to this adventure is, you know, I recognize that I could put a physical, literal spin on this idea of low places and high points. And to do that, I'm going to go at the beginning of twenty twenty five, so a little over a year from now, the plan is to go from the lowest place on the planet to the highest. So from the Dead Sea now, I also say my original plan was to go from the Dead Sea in Israel. Just like always, life doesn't always allow for the things specifically that we want.
Speaker 3:My hope is that you know, this terrible conflict that's taking place will be resolved in some way, but, you know, who knows what's going to happen. And so I allow for the fact that I may not start in Israel. I may start in Jordan or somewhere else, But I'm going to go from the lowest place, which is the Dead Sea. I'm going to cross the Arabian Desert on foot, primarily running, doing some walking and hiking too. But I'm going to go all the way to the tip of Oman.
Speaker 3:And in Oman, I'm going to actually row about a thousand miles across the Indian Ocean in solo rowing vessel. That'll take a few weeks. And then I'm going get to India and I'm gonna get on a mountain bike and actually bike all the way across India, which is about 2,000 miles. And I have a plan to get together with the Dalai Lama in India and some other cool experiences that have taken a while to put together. And I'm going make my way all the way to Western Nepal and then to the base camp at Everest.
Speaker 3:And as I like to say, from there it's only like two or three miles, you know? It just happens to be straight up. So it will take me from the lowest place on the planet to the highest. And it's probably close to 5,000 miles when all is said and done, you know, total. And, you know, it's a symbolic thing more than anything else.
Speaker 3:Is the journey of the way we all operate. And as I like to say, Everest is a good metaphor for life because most people who die on Everest, and this sort of a morbid way to put this, so apologies at the end of our time, but most people who die on Everest die on the way down. And I think that that, you know, a lot of people don't make it to the top, but the majority of people who do, you know, not survive the experience actually make it to the top and die on the way down. And so it's part of the metaphor here is don't, you know, don't die on the way down. You know, it's, there's always another opportunity.
Speaker 3:You know, I work with so many young people who struggle with alcohol and drug addiction and, you know, I always tell them, Don't die on the way down. And it's just sort of a symbolic idea of recognizing that the struggle is going to continue. Life is struggle. I mean, life is joy and happiness, but there's no time in my life, I knew this a long time ago, where all my problems are going to be resolved and then I can be happy or then I can be joyful. The flip side is the truth, which is joy and happiness are mine to have anytime I want them, anytime, no matter what.
Speaker 3:My wife's in the other room. We're over six years into a very hard battle with cancer for her, trying to save her life every single day. And, you know, it's still our choice to be happy and joyful even in the face of hardship. And I think that that's the, you know, it's a great way to wrap this up, this idea of, choice and of self administration. Other people do not have the ability to make us unhappy.
Speaker 3:Only we can do that.
Speaker 2:Yes. Oh man. So beautiful. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that.
Speaker 2:And Charlie, this has just been so just incredible. I mean, a personal point of view, I mean, I took so much from this. So thank you for spending the time with us.
Speaker 3:My pleasure. Well, and thanks for, you know, I love having this, I love having a conversation and not just checking the boxes of, you know, what I've done in my life or whatever, what we've done. And, you know, for people who want to know more, obviously my website is an easy place to see more, but it is my email and my phone number that's on my website. So for someone who really wants to have a chat with me, as you all know, I'm pretty accessible and I try to respond. And some people don't want to do it in a public forum, but I'm always open to having a chat.
Speaker 3:I wish you the best for the future. And you got my number, let's keep in touch, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. We'll make sure to link everything up in the description here. And yeah, I mean, I've just been so appreciative that you are open and willing to be communicative and also to come on the show. So thanks, Charlie.
Speaker 3:It was my pleasure, Mike, and you you have a great holiday season. I'll talk to you soon.
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