Why Teens Really Start Drinking w/ Joanna Lilley
Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside, the podcast that helps you build a better relationship with alcohol and uncover the secrets to mindful living. Each episode brings you real stories, expert insights and practical tools to support your goals. Whether you're cutting back, taking a break, or thinking about quitting for good. I'm your host, Mike Hardinbrook, bestselling author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. This show is brought to you by Sunnyside, a personalized science backed program that helps you to drink less through habit change, coaching, and community.
Speaker 1:And for added support, we now have Sunnyside Med, option offering access to compounded naltrexone, a prescription medication that reduces cravings and helps prevent binge drinking. Ready to start your journey? Get your free fifteen day trial at sunnyside.co. For most young people, their first drink isn't about getting drunk. It's about feeling like they belong.
Speaker 1:When we see it through that lens, the whole conversation changes. In this episode, I talk with therapeutic consultant Joanna Lilly about what's really driving early drinking: identity, belonging, and pressure to fit in. We talk about how experimentation can start early, what signs can signal something more serious, and why giving young people realistic options, like a simple ninety day pause, can open the door to change. If you're a parent or someone who cares about a teen or young adult, this conversation will help you see the world through their eyes. Okay, Joanna.
Speaker 1:Thanks for coming on today.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:It's gonna be a great conversation, especially, like, myself as a parent and a dad. So I wanna get into this for my own motivations, but let's go back a little bit. Can you share about your background? Why you focus on young adults during this stage of life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the quick summary is that I used to work in higher ed and I love it. And even before that, I did get my master's in counseling, kind of like all of that working together was that I realized I didn't want to be a therapist, but I wanted to have the knowledge of how to help young people that I was working with. And so, and I loved working with this emerging adult population because legally they can make decisions for themselves. But oftentimes we're still in this transition period where there's just so much vulnerability and dependency still on parents or their network. And so there's just, it's prime opportunity for lots of support needed.
Speaker 2:And anyways, that's why I love it. It's like, I can have a private conversation with you because you're an adult, but when it really comes down to it developmentally, there's still a lot to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love that. And definitely, I mean, there's so much to navigate. And also us as parents is it's not like we come with a prerequisite. You know?
Speaker 1:We're just doing it for the first time. Even if you got I have three kids, but it's still different every single time. So I'm curious before we get into it, I do want to talk about so you're, I guess what would your title be? Consultant?
Speaker 2:Yep. I refer to myself as a therapeutic consultant. But I think to your point, Mike, that people are like, what the heck even is that?
Speaker 1:I don't know what that Essentially,
Speaker 2:have the knowledge of a therapist and most of the clients that I end up working with have some sort of therapeutic need, whether they're already connected to a therapist or like needing some sort of higher level of care. But the consultant piece lies in me being able to kind of direct them towards what makes sense based on the information that they share with me, whether it's the parent, the young adult, their current providers, or the collective of all those things. My job really is to just kind of be this matchmaker and ally for the young adults to help them see what could be based on what's going on. Can be more vague, right?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, it's not vague. And I think what it does is expands your reach. And from anything that I took away from there is that you can be an ally and anyone, both parents and teens and young adults at this age, that's really what they need. And so why do you think this is such a pivotal time when it comes to the topic at hand, which is drinking for identity and belonging?
Speaker 2:Oh, well, and especially because culturally, we're still pushing this narrative of going to college, right? It's not what's your plan, it is where are you going? Unfortunately, that's still like the majority of kind of the message for this after high school experience. So that said, let's kind of look backwards for a second. There's a lot of pressures that are either real or perceived for young people.
Speaker 2:Okay, as an adolescent or an emerging adult, one of the key developmental components is not just the independence and autonomy, but it is your network, right? Who's your community? And a part of that is intimacy, relationships, and obviously platonic, like who am I and also who are my people? And a part of that is exploration. And it also comes with some maladaptive behaviors or what ends up being flagged as maladaptive behaviors that are helping us cope with whatever it is that we're being kind of thrown, or what is being thrown at us, right?
Speaker 2:Those pressures socially or what's on the horizon academically or educationally.
Speaker 1:Before we get too deep into all of this, I want to kind of define like the age brackets that we're talking about because, you know, I want to say it's a sign of the times where we're talking as far as alcohol goes to this age group. But then when I look back, you know, my own experience was a totally different one than somebody else. Like somebody else that I actually know that's way more mild and mellow than they than I was as a youth. They were like, oh yeah, we were, she's actually a doctor now. She's like, oh yeah, we were drinking when we were like 14.
Speaker 1:I was like, you were? I don't think I had, you know, anything until I was like 16 or 17 at least. And even then it was like, you know, taking sips and stuff. So like, in this context, like, you know, for parents listening or maybe grandparents or somebody that everybody's an uncle or, you know, has a nephew or whatever, what are we talking about here, you know, as far as, like, age range that somebody should be listening?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, when I so anecdotally, who I work with is typically between the ages of 18 and 29. So when I talk about emerging adults, or if there's any information that you hear about kind of this transition youth or like, you know, young adult, it continues to expand, right? 18 to early 30s sometimes, but honestly, I think what we're talking about too is this high school experience. End of middle school through high school into kind of this transition into adulthood as a 18 year old.
Speaker 2:But oftentimes what I find with the clients that I'm working with is that we can look back and there was experimentation or there was beginnings of use as early as 'thirteen, 'fourteen, or sometimes even earlier. But really, obviously, again, when I talk about young adults, I'm really trying to reference this person that is either a high school senior and phasing out of living under parents' roof and in some way, shape, or form trying to quote unquote launch, that's what I'm
Speaker 1:That's talking great. And I'm glad that I sort of defined that a little bit because, I mean, even though I have kids that are younger, I'm already like plan planning out the roadmap on the challenges to come. And, you know, I think that this is a really unique challenge for a lot of parents as they move. These are actually kids where you you don't necessarily have much of a say at some point, you know, and it's really about employing other strategies to get the outcome that you're hoping for your kids. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, what are some of the, you know, and so, so as we're talking about youth that maybe are drinking at this point, what are some of the things that you're seeing with people that you talk to that might be thinking that it could be an issue or it's not really something that they're super happy about?
Speaker 2:Are you referencing the young person or are you talking about the parent?
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. I'm talking about the kids. Yeah. Or the young adults, the young person.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, honestly, where where they find kinda the awareness is twofold. One, it's impacting me socially, and I'm not sure. And and, again, we're always we're doing things that are it's all like synthesizing and gathering information, right? Is what I'm doing getting me the outcomes that I'm seeking? And that sometimes we don't even know what it is that we are seeking, but in the moment, we're still going with the flow of whatever some of our peers are doing.
Speaker 2:So oftentimes, the social well-being of young people ends up being, it carries a lot more weight in terms of, again, like, do I have people? Who are my people? And like, am I alone in the world? Like having connection, we're humans, it's going to be tremendously important to have that connection. On the other hand of all of this, it really is related to, is it impacting me negatively to the point where, and it's outside of the social network, where my parents are involved in the process, right?
Speaker 2:Am I getting in trouble legally? Am I getting in trouble at school? And again, this could still have overlap with social implications, but what we're talking about is the consequences are starting to outweigh the benefits. And so from an awareness perspective, we're realizing maybe this isn't like what I want to have happen for me. And again, I'm kind of talking in really broad strokes because there's so many ways that can play out, but I think that's really the beginning of that, this is not serving me the way that I need it to serve me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that this is a really interesting conversation because I'm thinking back to when I was a teenager. And I think that a conversation with somebody like you or you would have been so beneficial for me to be able to figure things out. So I'll give you the context of my previous childhood. So 17, 18 coming out, drinking in the '90s, kegs in red cups and that kind of stuff. And got got a before college, got a minor in possession.
Speaker 1:And and, yeah, like, elbow definitely had gotten me into some trouble that I probably wouldn't have gotten into. Nothing serious, of course. Yeah. But, so the court ordered me so that it wouldn't be on my record that I had to go to like 100 AA meetings. And then I'm getting ready to enter into college.
Speaker 1:And I'm thinking, okay, I don't think I'm an alcoholic. I mean, at that point I really was no serious thing. Just drinking on the weekends and stuff. But I did know that it got me into trouble and I'm thinking, you know, I'm going into college. I don't want to go the way I was before, but also the thought of me at 19 saying for the rest of my life, I will never have something based on that short experience that I had left me in this, like, do I enjoy college?
Speaker 1:Do I not drink and really study? I was, like, hardcore on myself about, like, I'm gonna get, like, straight As, like and and if this becomes a problem, then, you know, then maybe I can revisit this. But this was all, like, on my own. I figured it out. I did I did end up getting very high grades, and it slipped a little towards the end because you you kinda get lazy.
Speaker 1:You try to game the system. But, you know, I think that I'm not alone in maybe not necessarily, like, having to go to those court order meetings, but for such a small thing too, everybody's getting caught drinking underage. But I have to think that you come across people that are probably entering college in some way or another having those same thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think what you said, but I want to highlight is that the idea of being sober forever, right, is such a foreign concept for somebody that, like, let's talk about the developing brain. And if you have the developing brain that's also like, all of a sudden really enjoying drinking, we're dealing with somebody that's a little bit maybe stunted or behind in being able to make long term decisions and identify the consequences. Like the decisions I'm making today, how is that impacting me for the future?
Speaker 2:So oftentimes we make impulsive decisions. We're human, again, a young adult specifically. So the idea of, hey, you have to be sober forever, no more drinks, no partying, no socializing. I mean, I'm sure you can imagine and your listeners can imagine the fear of what we don't know, which is that means life's not going to be fun. That means like you name it, all of these myths that play out that are just coming from a place of fear and not being educated.
Speaker 2:It's so much easier to say, let's just not drink for now, right? Let's give it ninety days and see what happens. And honestly, sometimes the buying of the time allows the young adult to identify, well, shoot, I was really having some cravings. Like maybe I need to pay better attention. Or again, like now all of a sudden I'm more clear headed, I'm cognitively more sharp, like I'm getting better sleep rate.
Speaker 2:The benefits of not drinking now all of a sudden are not just felt, but they're also seen and identified and named. And then you get to make an executive decision. Do I want to go back to drinking? And if I do, what can I anticipate the consequences to be? Or do I continue to extend this a little bit longer?
Speaker 2:And that's where we say, take it not just day by day, but minute by minute. It's a choice that you're making.
Speaker 1:Totally. I mean, I think thinking back to then, was like, I didn't see the benefits because I was 18. So if I did drink, I just pop right back up and I didn't feel that bad. My sleep didn't feel bad. So like none of those benefits as adults was really felt.
Speaker 1:I wasn't like, I'm feeling best I have for, you know, and and and also I think when I was in those rooms, was with people that were very different than myself at that time, like much older and deeper addictions. So I just felt such a disconnect, but I did feel a connection that I committed to for ninety days. And that was, you know, let's see if I can be the best that I can be. I wish I had found some sort of middle ground in there or more like guidance to self awareness. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, how do you help people navigate that self awareness and also like remove this questioning of, am I going to lose my friends? Am I not going to be fun anymore?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I think they say that the opposite of addiction is connection, right? So it comes down to this place of like, can we just connect you with somebody, right? So if I'm talking about an 18 year old boy who is getting ready to go off to college, then I want to make sure that I can somehow connect him to somebody that maybe is similarly aged or even just like slightly older, but has more lived experience, is also choosing kind of a different path. And again, it's coming from a place of curiosity.
Speaker 2:It's not about like, I'm going to beat you over the head. You have to be sober kind of a conversation, like the threats or fear mongering. It just doesn't work anymore. So you've got to have somebody that's like, again, it's about trust, it's about rapport, it's about connection. So if you have this, whether they're seeking out a mentor, but we can match them almost with like a coach or a mentor that also has lived recovery experience and somebody that's open to saying, because they're grounded and secure in their recovery journey, look, if you are not ready to be where I'm at, let's still stay in touch, right?
Speaker 2:Still, like let me continue to be an ally for you because that's really beneficial for you coming to your own position or decision about what it is that you want to do. So it's almost like a harm reduction kind of approach or an invitation around like, hey, I'm also playing in this softball league, it's sober, so we'd love to have you, like let me know if you want to join us. And again, just exposure to sober fun or other people, especially young people that are in early recovery, that's also a helpful process for somebody that is college bound or college connected that believes that they're the only one, which is not the truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Of course, I love the harm reduction model. I mean, that's what we really base everything around here and not necessarily everybody like classifies as somebody that needs to be in recovery. They can just want to live a healthier life with healthier decisions. Are you seeing that starting to come up now more often than maybe, you know, generations past?
Speaker 1:Because it there's definitely a shift in the way people drink in this age group. I'm wondering, is the mentality also different?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, I mean, honestly, can we not to be the annoying guest that says like social media definitely changed the way in which we have information, right? We know about parties that are happening or we know about consequences that other people are experiencing. And so I do think that that has shifted the mentality. And I would say it's actually more split. I either have the young adult that really doesn't care and they're like on this path and whether or not there's family history of any type of addictive behaviors, like they are very socially savvy and they're still going to, know, they're going to have right?
Speaker 2:That's kind of the path they're on. On the flip side of it, and this is where it feels like there's really not much in between, whereas there used to be more, it's the extremely anxious young adult that is fearful to ever use substances because they've seen the consequences, whether it's from their family or their peers or whatever. And so they're almost in a place of, again, we can say it, you're choosing sobriety, but you've never done anything, but it's coming from this place of anxiety and fear. So, I mean, to answer your question, Mike, yes, I think that there's an opportunity to see kind of the shift in mentality. And I think a part of it too is just having to do with exposure of what the world or how the world exists nowadays, and then the young adults that are kind of growing up in it.
Speaker 2:And then I also think it has a lot to do with the fact that what substances are also out there also plays a difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah. How much of that, I guess that development phase of the prefrontal cortex is at play? Because I, so as, as you said, I would definitely be the first guy, but I had because I had a caveat to that. I was like, but I'm not gonna be the guy that washed out at college. I was like, I'm gonna go have fun, but I'm gonna get keep my shit together.
Speaker 1:You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, I mean, that's that's that's how we it's all about balance. Okay? Here's the, like, real thing. It's bringing all of balance,
Speaker 1:but there is one thing that kept me there.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is. You know, honestly, a part of it is just identifying, like, what what matters. And I do think that it becomes a slippery slope when I meet with young adults where they can talk about, like, I went into college knowing that I was going to join a fraternity. I'm going use you as that example. Like that's how I'm going to meet people.
Speaker 2:These are going to be my, like, not just my peers and like my family. While I'm in school, it's for life, right? So there's just this vision of like connection and longevity kind of in terms of that social scene. But all this is to say that sometimes the scales will tip and a lot of that is brain development related. If you're, you know, I mean, some of it's biology, some of it's kind of culture and how we were raised.
Speaker 2:And some of it's also like what it is that we're doing and ways in which we're actually, I don't want to put this pressure on parents, but sometimes when we don't have the ability to experience some of the decisions that we are making before going to college that could have potential consequences, then we do, again, feel stunted. And then we're making some of these decisions that have even more significant consequences when we're not under our parents' roof.
Speaker 1:Yeah, rebel. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's so funny. I have a lot of thoughts on this, and we're going to get into the parents' perspective in the next episode. But for example, growing up, I don't think I ever saw either of my parents crack a beer, you know, like, so I I just am always like, well, how much of this is like rebel on the opposite end or modeling? But we'll get your thoughts on that. From that student perspective, or I shouldn't say student, youth perspective, because it really doesn't matter if they go to school or not at the next stage.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Know, a lot of behavior at this age gets brushed off as normal. From the youth's perspective, what kind of patterns and changes make you say like, maybe this might be more than just growing pains?
Speaker 2:Oh, such a good question to end on because the like, what is normal is we can look at historical data. And then we also have like developmental psychologists that have like, you know, from a kind of book thumping area, we can say, here's what you can expect. But we also know we're dealing with people and the evolution of us as creatures continues to shift. But all that is to say that it is, honestly, you can't compare your child or yourself, right? If you were the young adult here in this moment, comparison is the thief of joy.
Speaker 2:And a part of that too is identifying like there is no normal nowadays. It is a what works for you. And then also just making sure that you're talking to other people about what their experiences are. Because if our reference point for what is normal is just what we see online or what we search for online, then we're going to get skewed data, and then we're kind of operating with that being normal, when in reality, if you do step back and look at it, it may not be normal. Again, I'm like, we can belabor it, like what is normal, right?
Speaker 2:Like here's this philosophical question. The reality is at the end of the day is that it's different for every single person.
Speaker 1:So there are no gotcha questions on this podcast, but if there was, you just passed with flying colors because I literally would have answered the same exact way, but I do it for adults, you know? And that is people are Googling like, is this too much to drink? Am I an alcoholic? Am I doing this? It really comes down to like me, if I was working in a coaching capacity, it's my duty and you would probably under, you know this even better than me.
Speaker 1:Most people already know the answer. It's your job to really like help them find it within. And it's really like, what feels like too much to you? This right or aligned? Because they, you know the answer.
Speaker 1:You don't need to go and find somebody else to tell you what's normal or what's too much. So like kudos, great, great answer. So if somebody was listening today in, you know, kind of in this demographic that we're talking about, where are some good places to start? Because I think they might not have, I wouldn't say courage, but just confidence to go to their peers because a lot of peers are in different maturity stages or they don't want to come off like they're not cool or collected or in control. So what do you tend to recommend when people at that stage, you know, not of course working with somebody like yourself, but also where else can they start to find support, where they feel, whether it be within the family, whether it be with a relative, whether it be with peers, where you tend to direct people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, usually, I think you kind of alluded to the first start really is it's about connections. It's about the network. And so sometimes if you have a good relationship with your family, I would say, hey, think I need to connect with a life coach or a mentor that could really kind of help me right in this moment. Because from a destigmatization standpoint, if you're not seeing a therapist, I don't know why, but it still exists where a stigma is there. And so this idea of like, oh, if you're seeking out a therapist, it's because you need help, which is not true.
Speaker 2:I mean, I would say, but so either ask for a therapist or ask to work with a coach. And sometimes that's just the initial starting point. The other piece in all of this is that if you work with someone, it doesn't mean that that's your person. It's kind of like going to the store, which nobody does anymore, but like go to the mall, try on a pair. You're like, I need to buy jeans.
Speaker 2:And it's like, okay, but you don't walk up and say this pair is going to do and then you pay for it and walk out. We do that more so now online. We're like, I'm going buy this. And if it doesn't work, I'm going to send it back. It's the same thing when you're working or finding your people, whether that's actually professional supports or your sense of community.
Speaker 2:It takes time to find the right fit. And so that's where I would say start with what you know, then start to kind of explore those feelers, like being put out. And then once you find like your, again, your friends, your mentors, your connection and community, you'll know it. But then also, like, I think if I want to continue to carry on with that metaphor, sometimes we change. So what fit before may not fit in the future.
Speaker 2:And so it's also important to just kind of have an ongoing self awareness of like, yeah, what is a fit for you right now in this moment?
Speaker 1:Wow, what a great insight that is so often overlooked and easy to do, especially when the answer, like let's say the therapist or counselor doesn't work, you just say, oh, it didn't work because the next step to find something else is going to take effort and more work and continued work and so we don't give the same level of effort but it was something else like you said, genes or whatever. We do. Like, if we don't find what we want, we'll go somewhere else and look, you know, and we needed to take the same approach when it comes to these scenarios. So, I love that. Let's let's stop with that one and in the next episode, we'll get into more of the parental perspective.
Speaker 1:But before we go, if anybody wants to learn more about you or reach out, where can they go?
Speaker 2:Just land on my website. It's www.lilyconsulting.com, and that's Lily with an e y.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on today.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Journey to the Sunnyside is brought to you by Sunnyside, a personalized science backed program that's already helped over 500,000 people cut out more than 24,000,000 drinks. No matter where you are on your journey to build healthier drinking habits, Sunnyside meets you where you are. And now with Sunnyside Med, you can access compounded naltrexone, a doctor prescribed medication proven to reduce cravings and prevent binge drinking, giving you the peace of mind you need to make lasting change. If you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co for a free fifteen day trial.
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