What We Wish We Knew Before Trying to Moderate w/ Merrilee Burke, LMFT
Welcome to Journey to the Sunny Side, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and of course, your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunny Side, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardinbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast and habit change expert. Today, I'm joined with somebody whose work I deeply respect and who's become a trusted voice in the alcohol and mental health space, Marilee Burke.
Speaker 1:Marilee is a licensed therapist based in California. She returns to the show for an insightful conversation about how drinking habits are often tied to identity, shame, and outdated definitions of problem drinking. We unpack what we both wish we knew when we first started trying to moderate. Why trial and error is actually a sign of progress, and how to define your own goals without labels or rock bottom. Whether you're exploring mindful drinking or simply trying to figure out what feels right for you, this episode offers clarity, compassion, and practical wisdom from someone who helps people do this work every day.
Speaker 1:Alright. Merrill Lee, thanks for coming on today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me back.
Speaker 1:I love having you on the show. We always have a good conversation, and it's been a while, so it's long overdue for a catch up. And, you know, some of the people listening may have heard your episode, but it was a long time ago. We're probably a 100 episode past since you've been on. So for a refresher, why don't you let us know, share a little bit about what you do and how you help people?
Speaker 2:So my name is Marilee Burke. I'm a licensed psychotherapist in California, and I help people change their relationship with alcohol. So I work with people who are trying to learn how to drink in moderation, People who don't really identify as an alcoholic, they feel like going to rehab or quitting altogether seems too extreme for them. But at the same time, they're really not happy with their relationship with alcohol and they wanna learn to drink less when they drink or drink less often or have, you know, fewer negative consequences with they when they drink. So that is, that's what I do.
Speaker 2:And like I was just telling you, that's become, almost my entire practice at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's incredible. And what I'd really love to know since the last time that we talked is what has changed? Have you seen a difference in people's mindsets that they don't necessarily need to fit within the label? They don't necessarily need to hit a rock bottom.
Speaker 1:Why would you say there's a it's picking up for your practice and more people are seeking that out?
Speaker 2:I think I think it definitely has changed. There's been a really big shift around people being more open to talk about, you know, issues they're having with drinking and feeling like it doesn't necessarily mean that they, you know, need to put a kind of label on themselves. I think there's a lot there's this big push toward the sober curious movement, which is people who maybe wanna explore not drinking as much or not drinking in the same ways or at the same times. Things like nonalcoholic beers and other cocktails have become really popular. There are even some nonalcoholic bars.
Speaker 2:So people still want to get what they get out of alcohol, but maybe having it be not as big a part of their life. And so I think as that's coming along, people are really starting to question what they want their relationship with alcohol to look like. And for a lot of people, they they think, you know, is this really good for me? Do I really wanna do this at all? And a lot times they say, yeah, I do wanna do this.
Speaker 2:It helps me connect with other people. It's fun. And of course, adults, we always need fun. Right? Even you know, we don't outgrow our need for fun as we get older.
Speaker 2:So, so I think, yeah, there's been a big shift toward not seeing drinking in the extremes of either you're a social drinker who barely drinks or you're an alcoholic, that there are a lot of people who have complicated relationships with alcohol, and that they wanna just have more control and have more mindfulness around it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What are some of the typical things that people come to you about? Like, how do they approach the conversation and say, you know what? I think I'm this might be a problem for me, or this is something that I need to adjust in my life. Is there a pattern that you tend to see?
Speaker 2:In terms of what they say to me when I first engage?
Speaker 1:I think I think the reason I'm asking the question is that some people might be timid on how to open up that conversation with another person directly. And do you find that being one of those topics that they do? And and how have you seen some people maybe with less shame approach that, ability to open up?
Speaker 2:I think in the beginning, you do always pick up on some shame and some nervousness and concerns. And sometimes people will start off by asking me if I think they're an alcoholic and if I think they need to quit. So I think there's always that nervousness and that concern going in. And I explained to them that alcoholic isn't actually a diagnosis, that the diagnosis is alcohol use disorder. And that someone could be, you know, kinda diagnosed as mild, media moderate or severe.
Speaker 2:And, and then we kinda go from there. You know? And I kinda make sure that they know that the issue is about how they feel about their relationship with alcohol. You know, what they want it to look like, that there's no, right way to drink or wrong way to drink, that it's really that they're the ones who are going to make the decision about what they want that to look like.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love that. And, you know, that's gonna be part of the conversation that we'll get to in that we're gonna talk about our own experiences of what we wish we knew when we first started trying to moderate our drinking. And when you say I love your philosophy because I'm aligned on it in that they get to decide their goals. But how do you help guide people toward finding what their actual goals are and then deciding whether what's the right path for them, you know, whether it be taking a break or going for full abstinence or try mindful drinking.
Speaker 2:You know, it's we all have different parts of our personality, and it's about getting them all to compromise. So there might be a part of them that says, drinking is bad for you. You should never drink. Your health is important to you. Just quit.
Speaker 2:And then there's another part of them that's thinking, well, no. You know, you have fun drinking, and it helps you to relax. And it's something it's a hobby. It's something you really love to go wine shopping or you, you know, are passionate about a certain kind of liquor or whatever it is. And so there's a conflict there.
Speaker 2:Right? There's a a dispute going on within the person. And so the goal is to figure out what do all of the parts of the person want, you know, and then how do you find a balance? Because sometimes people will come and the shameful parts are the loudest sometimes. I should just quit.
Speaker 2:I can't control this. This is a problem. You know? And sometimes giving space for the other parts to explain, well, here's why alcohol is still a part of your life, and here's why you don't actually wanna quit completely. And letting because those parts are obviously powerful.
Speaker 2:Right? Because the person continues to drink. So it's about letting all the parts kind of have their say and finding a balance and finding a compromise because that's the that's what the whole person really wants. And that's gonna help the whole person figure out what their goals should be.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. I love that, especially as far as, like, figuring out what your goals are would be in a line. Now there's two kind of there's multiple trains of thought around paths to what is the right way, but you could really put a division between one that's prescriptive that tells you this is what you have to do and these are the steps you have to do to get there. And then there's one that maybe aligns more in your philosophy and that a harm reduction and mindful drinking and that you define your goal, and we find the steps and also use some of the proven methodologies that have helped you get to that goal.
Speaker 1:How do you feel about those two? Do you have an strong opinion on the one that diverts from your own?
Speaker 2:You know, if that works for someone else, I would never tell someone if they benefit from that that that that's wrong. Right? So if helps somebody else, that's great. In my experience with my clients, the part of them that sees the whatever the value is in drinking for them, there has to be a value or they wouldn't be doing it. That part tends to rebel against the hard and fast rules.
Speaker 2:You have to do it this way. You have to sometimes those parts rebel against me because they think I'm going to do that. Right? They think I'm going to, you know, force someone to change in a way that they're not ready for yet. So it it typically it tends to backfire because you get the rebellion against the kind of stricter rules around it.
Speaker 2:So that's why if and, again, if that helps somebody, great. Whatever helps you, go for it. But in my experience with my clients, it's it's a lot better to take things slowly and to, you know, kinda take all the different perspectives into account.
Speaker 1:A 100% agree. And, you know, that's not why the question I wanted to know is because you have to know why you decide to do it one way and somebody does it the other, but we're both in a 100% agreement in that whatever works for you is the right solution. And that's what I've come to in all the conversations I've had with people that have gone traditional 12 step to mindful drinking, one works for somebody, one doesn't work for the other. And the more solutions that we have that align with how you would make change and get to where you wanna be is the right solution.
Speaker 2:Right. Exactly. And and some people do end up some people I work with do end up, quitting drinking altogether because they realize once they understand all the reasons they're doing it, they don't really want to do it anymore. So that happens sometimes too, but it's their choice. It's not they're not doing it because it's what they think they're supposed to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. That's so good. Well, I think that leads us into a kind of our we're just gonna have a fun conversation around our own insights and experiences, And we're gonna start with the question, and you suggested this topic, and I think it's a great one, which is what's something that you wish you knew when you first started trying to moderate your drinking?
Speaker 2:I yeah. I was talking to someone about my practice and how I got into doing this work, and I was reminiscing about what it was like when I first started drinking and and realizing how little I knew back then. I think I think the first thing is what we were just talking about, which is this idea that if just because you have a problem, lots of people have a problem with drinking at one time or another. And it doesn't mean that if you have a problem today that you'll always have a problem. And I think I didn't know that back then because because that wasn't really part of the conversation.
Speaker 2:And so I I think I was a little bit afraid to address the problem because I thought then I'd have to admit to myself that it was a problem, which, of course, you know, the day after drinking when I'm hungover and I've done embarrassing things and I have all these regrets. Yeah. I knew it was a problem in those moments. But then I was able to put that away, and then the next party would roll around, and I would think, oh, this is gonna be fine, and it wouldn't be fine. But I think any other know, I'm a very problem solving oriented person.
Speaker 2:And if I'd had a problem with anything else, I would have tried to fix it. But I wasn't doing that with alcohol for a long time because that would have had made me have to admit that I was having a problem. And I was so afraid that that would mean I was an alcoholic. So, yeah, if there's one thing I I really wish I knew back then, it was that just because you have a problem doesn't mean you can't fix it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that's really powerful. And also, like, I think the definition of what problem is is so determined by the person. Just like if you wanted to use the other, term of rock bottom. Rock bottom for some people could just be a, like, a really bad hangover, and, like, they literally never did it again.
Speaker 1:Same with, like, how we define problem. I think you can't look at other people, which is especially in the beginning, you wanna look at other people and compare and contrast and see, well, it's not a problem for them. It's it's not a problem for me or or just some variation of that. But I think you really early on have to think about, is it a problem for me?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Right.
Speaker 1:And and speaking of that, like, I think I thought about this question, and I had I have so many, like, thoughts on what I'd like to lead with. And I have some follow on questions for us to to elaborate on other things because I know you have a lot of other things, but I think there were two points that really made me think about this. And one is that I wasn't the only one questioning it. And at the time, this was, like, 2015 when I was making these changes or at least attempting to make these changes, and I felt very alone, you know, looking at people, making the comparisons, like I said, looking at people and saying, well, they're out. How come they get to do that?
Speaker 1:And they, you know, they don't seem to have a problem. Little did I know they could've, and some people that I actually did compare to did end up having to make adjustments themselves. But I think one of the things that I really wish that I would've known early on was that this is a very common thing. This is why this podcast is here. This is why you have clients.
Speaker 1:This is why I get emails, every single day from listeners because society has has made it a normalized thing. And then if we can't control something that is literally an addictive substance that creates habit loops to to not to be better at controlling it than another person is sort of like crazy.
Speaker 2:Right. Right. Exactly. And it's such a bizarre thing that in this state, in our history, in our culture that we really we don't teach people how to drink Because that you know, and and I'm sure you know this in the times of the ancient Greeks, they had a symposium approach, and they taught people how to drink. Drinking was an important part of culture.
Speaker 2:And and I think especially, you spent some time living in Europe. I think that there is more of a conversation about how to drink in moderation. Whereas I feel like in our country, there's like a don't ask, don't tell kind of thing where you know young people are going to start drinking a lot of the time before they're legally of age to be drinking. And we know what's happening, and it just doesn't get discussed. And then people develop bad habits really early on.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, you know, I've had this conversation a few times more recently, and even I might have had it last week with Derrick Brown. Sometimes I get mixed up in all the conversations. But that that is a good point that I thought through so much is that we really were never taught how to drink. At least, you know, I think back to the nineties, and it was like, there was no conversation.
Speaker 1:It was just like you said, an unspoken thing that that's a rite of passage. So, really, the only way I learned how to drink was either by the other people that I was around, but I but I think it was really, like, the movies that I was seeing at the time, like, party, red cups, kegs, you know, be that party guy, and that's how you're supposed to be. And that really when it when that phase ends, you have to figure it out for yourself, and it's not it it can be messy.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, that reminds me of one of the other things I wish I'd known when I was first trying to moderate. Have you ever seen those I'm sure you've seen these tests that are online that you take to see if you might be an alcoholic and you check the box, yes or no. There's one question that's always on them that says, if you drink alone, you might have a problem. So I was afraid to drink by myself for years.
Speaker 2:I would only drink in social settings. And the problem with that was that I was often drinking with other binge drinkers. So I was just doing what everybody else was doing and having the same negative consequences they were having. Or even worse, sometimes I drink with someone who wasn't a binge drinker, but then I would still drink that way, and it would be really embarrassing afterward. So was it till I started drinking by myself that I started drinking more mindfully?
Speaker 2:And you can pay so much more attention to what you're drinking. You know if there's a bottle of wine open, how much you've had because nobody else is drinking. And if it's empty, you know how it got to be that way. And you can start to be a lot more present with your own experience of drinking. And I found that I was able to recognize when I'd had enough, when I felt good, when I felt the way I wanted to feel, and then I could stop and I could switch to water or take a break.
Speaker 2:And I never did that when I drank with other people. So I think, you know, there are so many rules around drinking that that, again, I would encourage people to think about what's best for them and experiment a little bit because that really was a major turning point in my relationship with alcohol when I started drinking by myself and doing it more mindfully.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Isn't that an interesting thing to to listen to? Like, the more mindful because you had a moment to take a pause and think to yourself and also a little bit of that scare tactic from those tests. And I I hate saying the word hate, but I I because I try to remove it from my vocabulary. But I I really dislike those quizzes because number one, the person that the you gotta think of the motive it's coming from.
Speaker 1:Most of them are coming from recovery models where it's a profit model. And and number two is, like, if you really if you took it as if you were you lied on it and said you drank less than you did, unless you drink, like, maybe once in a blue moon or whatever, it's gonna put you on a spectrum that's gonna make you really start going in some unhealthy ways of going severe and labels and all kinds of things. I think it causes more confusion than clarity.
Speaker 2:I think you're right. And I think and not just confusion, although that's a big part of it too, but fear. And the problem is when people fear feel afraid and they feel ashamed, you know, it just creates more stress. And then what do they do to alleviate the stress? They're probably going to drink more, and then they're going to feel, you know, the shame about that, and then they get stuck in a cycle.
Speaker 1:Yes. A 100%. And speaking of that, you know, one of the other this is one more thing to what I wish I knew early on was that I kept trying to figure it out, and it it was messy. And I'd feel like if it didn't end up perfect, I'd end up feeling like nothing was working. And there was a lot of trial and error.
Speaker 1:And what I realized is that the failures and the trial and error, that's normal. And and I wish that I would have realized that instead of just beating myself up.
Speaker 2:Definitely. Right. I mean and it and I always try to tell clients when we set goals. I try to say intention instead of goals. I don't know if the word is really that different, but the idea that we're going to try something.
Speaker 2:We're going to try to limit your drinks to this many on this night. We're gonna try to have a dry night. We're just trying. And if it doesn't work, that's going to give us information. So if somebody you know, okay.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna drink on Tuesday, then they end up drinking. All I ask them to do, say, that's okay. That's not a failure, but just pay attention. Notice what was happening. What were you thinking?
Speaker 2:What were you feeling? What were the triggers that caused you to drink when you had intended not to? And that it's all a learning experience. And sometimes clients set goals that are just a little too strict because of the guilt. And I always try to encourage them to start with, like, really easier to attain goals so you don't get that feeling that you failed, and then you feel discouraged, and then you give up.
Speaker 1:You know, you said something that I've thought about actually, and that is distinguishing between intention and goals. And in in my own thoughts, the distinction is very similar, but it was intention versus expectations, which goals are very much aligned to expectations. If you set an intention and the outcome isn't exactly what you expected, without that expectation, I think it leaves room for growth. The expectation of the goal isn't hit, it leaves more more room for disappointment and self defeat if that outcome isn't exactly as you planned it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Because sometimes your intention could be good. The outcome isn't when you expected, but the learning is exactly what you needed to know.
Speaker 2:Right. And that it's it's progress. You know? We always say better is better. Right?
Speaker 2:So it's like, you know, if you went from, you know, having, you know, five drinks in a night to having four, but your goal was three, it's still better.
Speaker 1:Yes. Better is better. That's a 100%. Alright. Let's go on some a couple other questions that are related.
Speaker 1:So I have what is the belief that you had let me make a notation here, and that is we might have overlap. So, you know, if you if you wanna stand by your original, just go ahead and say what I said before or elaborate in a different way. So what is the belief that you had back, back then that ended up getting in your way?
Speaker 2:I think I would go with the thing I said, especially the thing I said about thinking I couldn't drink alone, that that would be bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Oh, definitely. And I I definitely took those quizzes and thought the same thing. I'm like, oh my gosh. You know, here I am.
Speaker 1:But, but I wasn't sitting there with an entire bottle of Jack Daniel's, you know, polishing it off either. So, you know, those they're so skewed in what the information gives you on those tests. But so I think when I thought through, I jotted a couple notes here. I think one thing that got in my way was thinking that there was a right solution that worked better for others. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And that if I started down that solution that I thought would be the best or that I heard was the best or so and so did and and got a good success from it and it didn't work for me, then I felt like there was something wrong with me.
Speaker 2:Right. I think a lot of people feel that way. And I think the one solution used to be, you know, rehab or abstinence. And now it could be something like, you know, using a certain app, you know, like using the Sunnyside app or going to moderation meetings or working with a particular therapist. And you're right.
Speaker 2:Like, what works for one person might not work for someone else. And it is we're all so complicated, you know, and we're all so unique. And even though, you know, I've worked with so many clients who have the same issue with alcohol, they're all completely different. No two clients is ever alike in terms of the pace that they change, the underlying causes of their problems with alcohol, the things that work for them. So, you know, I always go into it with certain ideas about what could work, but I have to, you know, humble myself and know that I don't really know what's going to help this person, and they don't know either.
Speaker 2:And we're kind of on a journey together to figure it out, but it is different for everyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you know what's so funny is that we think that we're very linear in thinking around alcohol for whatever reason. I don't know what why that is. If we were to say, like, there's one right diet, everyone would say, like, yeah, maybe, but I I would never be able to do that. We're gonna go over to this diet because I I could see myself doing it.
Speaker 1:Or, like, I don't know, something dumb. Like, you're gonna choose a musical instrument, and there's, like, 20 things there. One's gonna speak to you, and you might be amazing at playing that musical instrument. And you might, you know let's say you're a piano and you're not ambidextrous at all, which would be me. I would never be able to play something with my my left hand or something like that.
Speaker 1:And I feel like for some reason or another, we've been conditioned to think that, they're just those options aren't the same when it applies to drinking.
Speaker 2:You're right. And I think I wonder if that's because it is relatively new conversation. I mean, historically, it's not new, but in our culture, in our lifetime, it's fairly new. And I I think there is a lot of shame around it and a lot of feeling that people have that they want to do it right. And they don't want to be classified as, you know, someone who has a problem who could never drink again.
Speaker 2:You know, they don't want the label. They they want to to find the right solution, and it's it's probably pretty scary to know that there there could be some trial and error trying to figure out what that is for each person.
Speaker 1:Such an interesting point because that that's a 100% true that that the conversations are being had with more perspective and different different on a different wavelength of of the spectrum here as far as drinking because traditionally, only conversations were had because we're out of necessity on the extreme side. Mhmm. Right? Now and this is part of the reason that I actually ended up writing a book is because I felt underserved by whatever conversation was out there, and I felt so alone to try and figure it out and come to be that there's so many other people just like me that didn't feel connected or as extreme as those conversations yet was not happy with where I was and felt like I could do so much better.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Isn't I love expanding these conversations.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Isn't that amazing? You know, looking back at my life, I've known I think I've known more people who at one time had a problem with drinking than people who never have. I have known some people who drinking was just never a big thing for them, and it was never a big part of their life. But I've known many more, and maybe that has to do with, you know, living in Los Angeles or that I used to work in entertainment.
Speaker 2:But I don't really think so. I think it's just something that is common, much more common than we realize just among people who drink alcohol.
Speaker 1:Yeah. For sure. I mean, I definitely hear those conversations from people that there's no look to it. There's no, like, you know, necessary criteria that we build these stereotypes. It's it's the mom.
Speaker 1:It's the top performer CEO. It's it's the gym teacher. It doesn't matter. Like, all these conversations can be had, and it is much more common than we think. And I'm so glad that we get to have them more often now, and it's become more normalized that it it should just be like any other thing that we wanna improve in our lives.
Speaker 1:It it shouldn't be with shame because it was served to us by society anyways as we were growing up.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Let's see. What role did your identity play in your habits? Do you see yourself a certain way that made it harder to change?
Speaker 2:I think so. I think, you know and and the time in my life when I started drinking wasn't a great time. I was realizing the career that I was in was not the right career for me. I wasn't having any success, and I realized I didn't really want to. So I think there were I I really wasn't feeling good about myself at that time.
Speaker 2:I was kind of at a low point. And on one hand, I was misusing alcohol because of that. But also I think that that was something that probably delayed me addressing the issue because I didn't wanna have one more problem. I didn't wanna have one more thing to feel bad about or to be, you know, critical of myself over because there were there were other things that were just not working in my life. So I think the timing was was not the most ideal.
Speaker 2:And I think that's also part of why I started drinking because I started drinking pretty late in life. I was 25, and things were already starting to not go well. And I think that's a big part of the reason why it became a problem right from the start.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I I think identity does play a lot into to making change harder or how you feel as yourself about yourself in this way. Because I remember there's a few relations to my drinking and identity that I can play from from different angles, but one would be, okay, from outside appearances, I was fit. I did athletic things. I was pretty successful entrepreneur or a father.
Speaker 1:And to sort of address this in regard to my identity meant that I was weak in some way. Mhmm. And I think that was a challenge for me. And what that drove me to, and I think it's downline from identity, it then meant that I felt like I had to label myself. Either I was normal or I was alcoholic.
Speaker 1:And until I was able to do that, then there wasn't a problem where there was a problem, and both of those would present challenges in one way or another.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah. It makes sense that it didn't fit into this idea that you were potentially an alcoholic. Didn't really fit into this idea you had of who you were. It didn't really make sense.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I I don't really love that term functional alcoholic. I think that's really confusing for people because Yes. When Bill w was writing the big book and he's the founder of AA, what he kinda I I think the word alcoholic was around before then, but he really brought it to popularity. He was talking about somebody who was, by definition, not functional. Like, there are people who, like, they their lives were being ruined and destroyed by alcohol.
Speaker 2:That's who he formed AA for, and those were the people he wanted to help. So I think this idea of a functional alcoholic, it's like, well, now what does it even mean? You know? It's like now it's it's anybody could be an alcoholic regardless of the consequences that they're having from alcohol. And I think that, like you said, it's confusing, and I think it's also scares people.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't like that term either, so we're in agreement. I think the better question at that time that I should have been asking is not, you know, any of those labels, but is it working for me? Is it functioning for me in my life right now in the way that it is?
Speaker 2:Right. Exactly. I really hope people can start to to get to that place with alcohol and with other things. I think there is this kind of human nature, desire to fit in, to be normal, to to do the right thing. And, you know, we'd obviously take cues from society.
Speaker 2:But I think we also learn that with other things like diet, like you talked about, that what works for one person won't work for somebody else and that we do have to figure it out on our own, which is scary, but it's ultimately liberating because that's how we figure out how to live the life that is best for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and I think there's a season to everything. So also the identity is it was hard for me to think, okay. Do I have to let go of this party guy that was fun in college? And come to think of it, like, now, in retrospect, that really wasn't my idea identity.
Speaker 1:That was more of something that I probably modeled after TV shows and who I thought I should be. But even if that was, like, authentically me, there is a season for everything. It's okay to not be the same person that you were in college, your thirties, early forties. You know, you could be single. You could be a parent.
Speaker 1:You could be a grandparent. Like, you don't have to stay stuck there, if it's not serving you anymore, and it doesn't mean that you're not exactly who you are even if you make these changes.
Speaker 2:That's that's such a good point because it's not just about feeling comfortable being different from other people. It's being different from the person that you were.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yes. Do you remember an moment when things started to feel different for you?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. You know, that's a tough one because I feel like for me, the change was so gradual. I do remember when I went to grad school to become a therapist, I had this this idea that I can't have a problem with this anymore because a therapist wouldn't have a problem with this. So, you know, at at that point, I, you know, had been really I'd started drinking by myself. I was trying to be more mindful with it.
Speaker 2:I kinda knew what my limits were, and that was a moment of I can't really mess up, which of course I did mess up after that. You know, like you said, progress, it's nonlinear. But that was a moment, a turning point of I know what I need to do. Now is the time to do it. Because if I can't do it, then I've got a bigger problem than I thought I did.
Speaker 2:But I was able to do it. That was a really big shift when I kind of you know, it went from just being completely chaotic and no idea what I was doing to, you know, knowing what my limits were, knowing what worked and didn't work for me, and then setting really strict rules for myself around that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I like that answer. I love the perspective because it's totally okay to not have an moment. So I want people to not feel like, oh, I never had that because, you know, you could be going from, big life changes. You could be doing gradual life changes.
Speaker 1:You could do being incremental. You could go up, down, up, down, like, you know, and and then all of a sudden, you find yourself where you are. So I don't I I like that you brought that up because I don't want anybody to think that that's a typical thing to have an moment.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Did you have an moment?
Speaker 1:So I did because mine was more on the more drastic scale because I had inched up from couple glasses of wine, a couple nights a week to then it just being my nightly ritual was wine after work every single day, and it went on. It would go, you know, for a while, and then I'd cut back, and then I'd you know, it kinda went up and down, and I make some attempts. But the moment for real actual drastic change was when I took an extended break. So for me, I think we talked about it, like, different methods work for other people. I think for me, the gradual was not enough for me to feel and change drastically.
Speaker 1:I'm kind of an extreme guy anyways. For me was not to stop forever, but I stopped for an extended period. And that really gave me enough space to be able to objectively look at how things were and how I'm feeling now and long term how I'd like them to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that a long break can really be helpful for people, and it really gives you a lot of information. And and something that I really like about is it tells someone, okay. I can't stop. This isn't an issue for me because I can't stop.
Speaker 2:So what could be going on? What could the issue actually be?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It it it does give you that space. It did for me. Mhmm. You know?
Speaker 1:It was able to sorta it was the reset button that I needed, and I had done I've talked about this a few times. I'd done thirty days number of times. It just in my adult life, I had never done more than that, and it just wasn't enough space for me in those thirty days. I needed longer. And I think that ninety days is much more impactful if you're more like somebody like me, because that's really what I needed to really see, like, what what's my overall goal here?
Speaker 1:Is it to never drink yet again? Is it to, move more long for sustaining long term habits? What do I think I can actually do and is attainable, and what can I experiment with? Because my overall goal, what I what I got to is I no longer wanted to be a nightly wine drinker and eat. And that's been a goal that I've achieved ever since that break.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Can I ask, was there a specific moment or experience that gave you the insight that you needed to take a longer break?
Speaker 1:It was by accident. So I was like, I'm gonna go thirty days and reset my habits. And for some reason, this one time, you know, I did a couple things different. I was taking I was working with my naturopathic doctor and taking some certain supplements that would help with body recovery that then makes habit change and mood stability and sleep more manageable, you know, when you really do step out of it. And I got to that thirty days, and I said to myself, you know what?
Speaker 1:Why don't I just go 60? Let's just see. I've never done that. And I did it, and I realized that the thirty to sixty day period was nowhere near as difficult as the one to thirty day period. And I got to I got to 60, and I actually remember pumping gas at the gas station.
Speaker 1:And I looked at my wife, Priscilla, and I was like, you know what? Today's sixty days. I made it sixty days. And I said, why don't I go ninety days? I've never done that.
Speaker 1:Let's do that. And what happened was is that that flew by much faster, and then all of a sudden, it gave me all the space. And I realized that, number one, going that long is not as hard as you think it will be. And all of a sudden, felt like I can do these things. I can make changes, and I can figure out what the path is for me, and it doesn't need to be defined necessarily by somebody else's path or what they think that I should do.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, and going back to what you're talking about before with identity, I would imagine having ninety days without alcohol really changed how you thought of yourself in terms of how you drank. You went from being a nightly drinker to someone who just didn't drink at all and didn't really have a hard time not drinking. So I would imagine there was a shift in terms of who you were in relationship to alcohol.
Speaker 1:It did. It did change a lot. And and I will say it wasn't without its struggle, but it got easier. That was the biggest insight is that, you know, if you've ever attempted, dry January or sober October and you struggled and you're like ninety days, no way. Like, it it isn't like the first thirty days.
Speaker 1:At least I'm speaking from my own experience.
Speaker 2:No. I think I think that's definitely true. And just from a, you know, a a perspective, what's going on in someone's brain in terms of their dopamine and their cravings, your the the first thirty days are definitely going to be hard. Really, the first week is going to be harder and depending on, you know, how much someone was drinking to begin with. But you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2:The first thirty days is going to be a lot more challenging than any amount of time after that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And and you can chunk it down, you know, week, two weeks, you know, shorter, and that can that can help definitely. And what do you think that you might have some good ins insight here because you talk to a lot of people? What's something that people get discouraged by that doesn't actually mean that they're failing?
Speaker 2:Just not meeting their goals. And if anything, that's usually an indication that it wasn't the right goal at the right time. But I think, you know, people, they they still approach alcohol in a very binary way. And, you know, there's a part of them that thinks, well, you know, I said I was only gonna have two drinks. I usually drink five, and I said I was only gonna have two.
Speaker 2:And, you know, then they get really discouraged. And so that's why I I really try to encourage them to not set really strict goals in the beginning and to understand, you know, two might not be the right of help for you right now. That might be your long term goal. You know, maybe your long term goal is to only drink on the weekends, but let's not jump from drinking every night to only on the weekends because, you know, you're you're kinda setting yourself up to fail and be discouraged.
Speaker 1:Yes. I totally love that answer because we always wanna fast forward to exactly where we think we should be, and maybe that's just too much of a jump for now, and you're not giving yourself room to make it sustainable. Because that's that's actually what happened for me is it was a stepping stone into something else. So once I got to that space, it was a stepping stone to be able to to see where my next path would be. And the same as with you.
Speaker 1:Like, you might just need to go, like, couple weeks or a month or whatever in this middle ground to be able to get to that next one because it'll be a lot easier. And I I you know, I think beating yourself up the next day on this is a big thing when you think you're failing because it's easy to say I'm failing, beat yourself up. And one insight that I got from myself was, number one, I'd stop I it's not easy to not beat yourself up sometimes when you fail, but you really have to to step back. And I think number one, especially when it comes to alcohol is to say, look. I'm not my best self right now.
Speaker 1:Like, chemically, biologically, like, emotionally, like, today is not my day to make life decisions or judgments about me. So I'm gonna give myself space today to wait until tomorrow or the next day to start really, like, getting deep into thought if I'm really, like, being pulled there. You know? But, also, it's just to ask, like, if you find yourself in that loop, like, take a step back, and this is what worked for me. It's like, is doing this serving me right now?
Speaker 1:Is this is this doing anything for me positively?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. That's such a good point you bring up because that's something you don't wanna do is set goals when you're hungover or when you're in the shame about how you drank the night before because then you're gonna set a really unrealistic goal. You're gonna say, okay. I'm not drinking again for thirty days. And the next day when you're feeling better, that thirty days might seem kind of extreme.
Speaker 2:And so then you're not setting a goal that you're actually likely to meet. So I think the time to set goals is when you're feeling pretty neutral about your drinking and to set them, you know, if you're working with someone or or if you're not, just to set them, you know, when like, you know, on a Wednesday, when you're far away hopefully from, you know, whenever the the last bad drinking experience was, set a goal then that seems a little bit more reasonable that's not coming from a place of an extreme.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking of the quote, I'm never drinking again. Yeah. You know? People all said it. Right.
Speaker 1:So well, hey. Listen. This has been so much fun. If somebody is thinking about working with a therapist for mindful drinking, you know, is there a is there a certain time or stage or, like, what would you say to that? Because I I obviously know the benefits that could come from that.
Speaker 1:But if somebody's, like, considering it, like, what can they expect? Or or, you know, they're probably saying, am I the right candidate or or that sort of thing?
Speaker 2:There you don't have to wait for any kind of rock bottom or anything like that. It's just if you don't like it, the way it is, even if it's not you know, you're not having extreme problems. It's up to you. If you don't like how you're drinking, you know, don't don't put it off. I wish I had started changing, you know, my relationship with alcohol a lot sooner.
Speaker 2:And the sooner you start, the more you can start to to feel better and to have a better relationship with it. And it, you know, it does take time to make changes. So I would just say if you're considering it, you know, whatever route you're going to go to try to make the changes, start today, but also be realistic and know that you're not going to meet your end goal right away.
Speaker 1:I love that because that's exactly what I said to myself. I said, why didn't I do this sooner? Mhmm. So well, Mary Lee, thanks so much for coming on today. If anybody wants to reach out or learn more about what you do, where can they go?
Speaker 2:They can just visit my website, maryleeburke.com.
Speaker 1:Okay. That's so great. Well, thanks a lot, Mary Lee.
Speaker 2:Thank you. It's so good to see you.
Speaker 1:This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped hundreds of thousands of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 2020. And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30% in ninety days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking habits. It's not super restrictive. So if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week.
Speaker 1:If you could benefit from drinking a bit less and being more mindful of when and how much you drink, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. You'll get access to everything that we offer, including tracking and planning tools, coaching from our experts, a vibrant community of people just like you, and the motivation and advice to stay on track with your health goals, all with no pressure to quit. That's sunnyside.co.
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