What Is Somatic EMDR? How Trauma Gets Trapped in the Body w/ Sonal Kalra
Welcome to Journey to the Sunny Side, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and of course, your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunny Side, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardinbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. In part two, I'm joined again by Sonal Kalra, founder of Connect Meditation and a trauma informed mindfulness teacher who blends Eastern wisdom with modern neuroscience.
Speaker 1:She breaks down the basics of somatic healing and EMDR, explaining how trauma and stress live in the body, not just the mind. We talk about how the nervous system can stay stuck in survival mode, how somatic practices help restore a sense of safety, and why healing often starts with small body based tools. If you've ever felt reactive or overwhelmed without knowing why, this episode will help you understand what's happening beneath the surface and how to begin shifting it. One thing I actually before we get into a little bit more enzymatic, the example that you gave, can we can we repurpose it in a way that's, like, so basic and mundane but normal for people now that they could understand the difference between their thoughts and their awareness in a specific situation? And can I Yeah?
Speaker 1:Something that we all get annoyed with, which is like we get we get in line at the grocery store. Maybe we're trying to get home for dinner, and all of a sudden, there's, like, somebody two or three people in front of you. The other person's got coupons or maybe they won a lottery ticket. How do we bring that into that situation?
Speaker 2:Because the person's getting a little irritated. Right? Right. Okay. So I'll give it in two phases.
Speaker 2:Give this exact I'll come back to this example, which is actually a beautiful example that you give. But before that, I give one more thing. And Mike, I think it's so beautiful that you brought this up because it has enabled me to bring in one more example, just to explain that the awareness and the thoughts of that awareness of the thought. Say, instead of this example of the grocery store, if I can take an example of traffic jam. Sure.
Speaker 2:Say you're coming back from your office every day, and you get stuck in a traffic jam. It's 06:00 or whatever time you come back and you want to reach home, but you can't. One hour it takes you. You get irritated every day. And then one fine day, around the same time when you come back from your office, you decide to take a hot air balloon ride.
Speaker 2:And the hot air balloon comes near the same highway that you take from your office back to your home every day, on which you get irritated during that commute. But now, because you are in that hot air balloon, you suddenly have distance. So now this highway, the headlights seem like twinkling stars. It seems so beautiful because of that distance. Now, coming back to the example that you took of the grocery store.
Speaker 2:Now, if you're at the grocery store and you've never ever had any experience with meditation or mindfulness, know, anything, then my suggestion would be you jumped off a parachute. You jumped off a place without a parachute. Don't worry, soon will be over. But when you're back in the privacy of your room, when you have a little bit of time, if you want to start off with just observing, That means you're not with thought, but awareness. So we can't immediately go into the mindfulness area, so we go into the breath.
Speaker 2:So in the world of mindfulness, there's something known as concentration and something known as mindfulness. Concentration is basically become the within object of meditation. For most people, supposing it's the breath. If it's not for you, you could take any other part of your body, maybe your hands, your feet, your heart, whatever appeals to you. It could be a mantra, it could be a word, a peace, love, whatever appeals to you in that sense.
Speaker 2:There's also a particular meditation. There are many objects in meditation, but there's a particular meditation called Tratak in India, which is basically meditating on a candle flame. Think in that sense, whatever appeals to you. And what we're trying to do with, we're trying to practice present moment nonjudgmental awareness. Say, for example, if it's the breath, it's easily available for us in any part of our life.
Speaker 2:And it's easier because if it's non resistant for you, that means there's no resistance on the breath. You're just watching it without making any change to it. It's coming and it's going. It's coming and it's going. First thing that's gonna happen is you'll start getting calmer.
Speaker 2:Because if you notice that when you are stressed, your breath is sharper, shorter. But when you are calm, it's deeper and more easier. So one is just by the body you're calming yourself down. Secondly, as you start focusing on the breath, thoughts will come. So your mind goes away.
Speaker 2:It's not called a monkey mind for nothing. Your mind goes, then again, you bring it back to the breath. Then again, you become aware, mind has gone, you again bring it back. Over a period of time, it's something like going to the gym. Know, like if you go to the gym and someone tells you, You lift this one thing up, and over a period of time, this is going to develop your biceps or build your body.
Speaker 2:There's one little thing lead to that. But over a period of time, it does. So in the same way, just the fact that your mind goes and you bring it back, goes and you bring it back, you're building up your focus. You're building up your concentration. So once you're done with that, that's like a pilot project.
Speaker 2:Once you've got the you've got a little bit of is the time spent on that, so like oil you pour from a bottle, that's the stream of concentration. Now, you can actually start getting it to your thoughts. So say a thought comes in, initially, my suggestion would be on very easy feeling thoughts. You can just do so the thought comes in and you just observe it. And what will happen is, as you're observing it, you'll see that it rises and it falls.
Speaker 2:And then another thought comes. And then it rises and it falls. And then another thought comes and rises and falls. As it happens, somewhere down the line, you might feel the thing, you know what? This is so transient.
Speaker 2:All the thoughts are so impermanent. They come and they go. They come and they go. And the fact that impermanent, that means they might be here right now, and I'm giving them so much of importance, but after some time, some other thought will come. And that's another thought will come.
Speaker 2:So suddenly, you're like, this truth shall pass, And that can actually make you feel a little better. That right now, yes, but this truth shall pass because now you start to understand the impermanence of it all. First thing. Secondly, then you go on to the little more irritating thoughts, a little more, as per your unique and beautiful path of least resistance, to finally the ones which could be of course, it might take a lifetime. Maybe there could be still some topics which, even after years of meditating, you might still not be able to get into that present moment nonjudgmental awareness.
Speaker 2:But that's the beauty of meditation. It's not competition with anyone else. It's you and you. And then we finally start taking it from our sitting meditation into a day to day activity. So say you're the grocery store, and there's this person in front of you doing that.
Speaker 2:Now, typically what happens is, we give the blame on the other person. Had this person not been doing it, I would have felt better. And of course, that makes you feel a little bit more in power. But you can't sustain that power because how many people can you control? So then after some headache, you said, look, okay, what can I control?
Speaker 2:Because it's like supposing you are in, okay, you're having your morning. I'm going to go another example, come back to the grocery. I'm going to answer your question, but I'm going here and there because I'm looking at a lot of things which could help in getting to this to somebody who's looking, listening to this. So you're having your morning breakfast, your toast, you have a cup of coffee, and you're in love with somebody. Now suddenly, that coffee and that toast seems amazing.
Speaker 2:Now after a few days, you're sad about something. Now it's the same coffee as the same toast, but they seem so insipid, so bland, because you are in a different place. So, thoughts, our feelings, emotions are what are actually determining what is happening within us. Now, once you realize that, that, listen, my thoughts, my emotions, now you have a little bit of control. Because otherwise, it's like that rider story.
Speaker 2:So there's a Zen parable, which goes like a rider was going on a horse, and somebody met him and says, Where are you going? And he says, Why are not seeing me off horse? So, Anuj is taking me. So sometimes I feel with our emotions, wherever they go, we go. But once you realize that this is in your control, because it's your thoughts, your body, your sensations, and how do you do that?
Speaker 2:The techniques, of course, who make it easy. Then you know that you have control over it, firstly. Secondly, Mike, I just want to go to a little deeper place here. Remember I was telling you about that focusing on the breath? So what tends to happen is a lot of people do start meditating over a period of time when the concentration gets a little deeper.
Speaker 2:Initially, it might be just one or two seconds. They sit down for sitting meditation for fifteen minutes or five minutes, and only one or two seconds is when they've managed to focus on the breath. Day, three seconds, then four seconds. Fifth day, happened. Zero minutes, zero seconds.
Speaker 2:They could not focus on the breath at all. That's okay. You never miss the bus. Whenever you're ready, you come back to it that same day, next day. As you start doing it, there come a point when, say, you managed to have, let's say, eight seconds.
Speaker 2:Now, in those eight seconds, because in a moment you can only focus on one thing, and you're focused on the breath in those eight seconds of stream of awareness, there are no thoughts. Because in a moment you only focus on one thing. This is the breath. Now, there are no thoughts After you increase your from eight to nine to ten seconds, even more, there'll come a time where thoughts have anyway blurred, and the breath will also begin to blur. When the breath begins to blur, you've transcended the breath.
Speaker 2:You've transcended the mind and body, and you're gone to the awareness, which is aware of the thought. But that plays an inner refusal. There's a beautiful quote by Saint Teresa of Avila, who is a saint from Spain, who says you've reached that inner sanctuary. Follow the breath and lead you home to that inner sanctuary to a place of fear which is available to all of us, deep within us. From that place, let the thoughts come.
Speaker 2:Let the sensations come. Now you can watch them. Initially, to watch the thoughts, so you're at the grocery store and the police officer tells you, Watch the thoughts from the present moment, non general awareness. Believe me, I've been there. It's different.
Speaker 2:Unless you have really got some superpower that you've never practiced all this and you can do it like this. So initially, we just this is the way I would suggest. Doesn't matter. You jumped off a plane without the parachute, soon the situation will be over. But whenever you're ready, whenever privacy if do, and you want to do with this mindfulness, then you get into the breath or any other object of meditation, practice, Then on easy feeling thoughts, more difficult thoughts, more difficult.
Speaker 2:Get it into your present day or the easy situations. And there are a lot of ways. There are ancient books, Mike, like if anyone's into meditation and listening to it, and there's this philosophy, there's a wisdom approach called non duality. And they have
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:What do you know about this? I I would love to know that.
Speaker 1:Well, from my understanding and everything that I've read is, like, I am not separate from everything else, basically. Like, I am one in the same with you and I, with source energy, with anything. Like, this idea of separation is man made.
Speaker 2:Yes. That's so beautiful. And that's the ultimate teaching. So in one of the mahavakyas or the like, one of the main statements is Tatvamasi, which is something which is and I'll tell you what it means. It's very similar to what is inscribed in the Temple Of Apollo in Delphi, Greece.
Speaker 2:So the ancients across the world, different cultures knew this, know thyself. Tat Swam is you are that, that thou art. And what is that? That source energy, which is sort of pure awareness. So which is what I was referring to.
Speaker 2:When you go deeper into it, when you and I, of course, when you look at the body of Mike and body of Son and all the people listen to it, our bodies are different, our thoughts are different, our personalities are different. But we are looking not at those thoughts and the body, which are, of course, magnificent. But the enlarged self which encompasses the mind and body is so much more. And that pure awareness, if that is so, how do you quantify that? That cannot be described, but makes all description possible.
Speaker 2:So can I give you an exercise?
Speaker 1:Yes, you can. I will say let me say one thing that I say the reason I think think about this often actually and it does it does connect to the non judgmental awareness. Sometimes, I'll even be walking and you see somebody that's totally different than you, right? They dress different. They probably come from a different place.
Speaker 1:Like, they look like they might even have an attitude in Yeah. In a different way that's not even in a good way. Yeah. But a lot of times, I'll look at him and I'm like, I'm connected to that person.
Speaker 2:Beautiful.
Speaker 1:Because we're all I I really truly believe that we're all one and the same. So and and then all of a sudden, like, all those preconceived things sort of they don't all evaporate. I I would be lying. But but it certainly, like, changes the dynamic on how you view others in the world.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Absolutely. And Mike, hats off to you, more power to you if you can feel that. And you can also be honest to say that, listen, it doesn't negate everything because after all, there's so many things that we think about. But it's like the two techniques I give.
Speaker 2:One is, you know, there's a book called If Anyone's Interested, it's the Living Dead, Book of Living Dead, something like that, I'm not giving the exact name, Singer Singer Riponche is a Tibetan monk who's written this book. And the technique in that, supposing you're an alien and you've come on planet Earth, you don't know, the first time you've come on planet Earth. Now, how would you know? Because you don't know this is a Tibetan bowl. You don't know this is a Yoda.
Speaker 2:You don't know anything. I'm a woman. Right? You don't know anything. The house, the tree.
Speaker 2:So you're just looking at this is looking. So this is our technique to practice present moment non judgment. How do you get into non judgment? You're not judging because you don't know anything. You're a baby, supposing.
Speaker 2:A baby also hasn't been taught anything. So we are going to that pure awareness, you know, I know. But stories were as on practice, of course, many more techniques. And like I was saying, with non duality or some. But I'll come back to that.
Speaker 2:You said something, Mike, that you were able to get to that place where you were able to see the connection, the oneness in that sense, to whatever degree, of course, as our own unique and beautiful path of relationalism. I think it's so important of so much value to honor This is where I am, this is what I can do. I can't do it. Like, for example, there's a topic even for me right now. There are teachers who are far ahead of me.
Speaker 2:You know, like teachers like Ramana Maharshi, if you've heard of Eckhart Tolle I hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly because yeah, about the power of now. So one of the teachers that he believes in a lot is Ramana Maharshi. Ramana Maharshi was a teacher of non duality from India, South India, which is where you went and you really loved it. So he was from there. And during his lifetime, even people like Jung, Carl Jung and all want to meet him.
Speaker 2:I don't think Jung was the American psychologist. I don't think you would actually go and meet him. But a lot of people like he was featured in lot of things. But he was somebody which I feel was there twenty fourseven, three sixty five days. There are a handful of teachers who are there all the time.
Speaker 2:But some of somebody like me, I'm not interested topics like, for example, a child sexual abuse, or for that matter, anyone who's helpless and is suffering cannot stand up for themselves. For me to be in that place of practising non judgmental awareness takes a lot. And sometimes I'm not there. But there are certain things which even I have to, you know, keep practicing, keep shining the lamp in that sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Sure. I want to get in. I have a few questions before we go around the concept of somatic. And I think a lot of people will hear like, oh, it's in the body.
Speaker 1:And they're either, I don't get that, that doesn't make sense to me or they just don't understand the concept and I think and quite honestly, like, I would say I'm still a newbie around it as well. One concept I heard that sort of made it click a little bit was that it was almost like the parts of the brain that you were talking about that are responsible for everyday life. Like, you have your, you have that and it's not, it doesn't have enough capacity in an everyday scenario to be able to keep hold of those things. And so it's almost like it pushes it into your subconscious and your subconscious pushes it into your body as storage for when that information, if it's needed or something like that. Is there is that sort of the concept?
Speaker 2:Yes. Very close to that. By the beautiful book, if anyone's interested, The Body Keeps Score. It was a New York Times bestseller. It's one that features Messer Vendekok, if anyone's interested in that.
Speaker 2:And you also mentioned something known as capacity. So if I could give supposing there are these two bowls. The people who wanna be listening, nobody's gonna be viewing. Right? It's not a video.
Speaker 1:People can people can see the video too, but you but but describe it so people know what they're listening to.
Speaker 2:Exactly. So if you're just listening in, I'll describe it. But I got two Tibetan bowls in my hand, smaller and a bigger one. Suppose both are water, and I put a teaspoon of salt in both. The smaller one, when you would taste the water, it could be saltier as compared to this.
Speaker 2:But when you do resourcing, when you have resources with you, different kinds of resources, different techniques which can help build your sea legs, it's not that the life challenges will suddenly disappear, but your capacity, the word that you use so beautifully, that capacity increases, because dharani is not that faulty. But when your capacity is small, as in the smaller bowl, then it seems like challenges could seem more harder. But here, because you have resource so I would say whenever you're trying to do asthmatic EMDR, or you're getting these techniques or mindfulness meditation, anything to do with the mind and body, I would suggest if you can do it in a resource phase, it's so much more easier. And there are many ways of doing it as for one's choice, everything by choice, but this is so much more easier.
Speaker 1:When it comes to actually doing the practice itself, we're talking about it, we're understanding the concepts, But how like, if I walked in and you and I were gonna work together or somebody that handles that, how what does the process look like?
Speaker 2:Okay. Typically, initially, if you mind, a lot of people, especially when somebody buys, why the mind and body and what is all this happening? A lot of times, we may want to just first ascertain, is this person in touch with what is happening in the mind, what is happening in the body? So initially, you just have a lot of felt sense. So you might have a lot of senses, a lot of work on senses.
Speaker 2:So, for example, this technique, which you can use later on also in your work, but initially, can you do a little grounding? So anyone who's listening into this, if I could just say everything by choice, see how it feels to you, if you can just bring an awareness to your feet, And if you can just go a little bit pressure on your toes and on your heels, on the sides, just trying to get awareness of your body. A lot of times, we don't even know which how do you walk, which foot you place first. What is your preferred side of walking? What do mean?
Speaker 2:I never thought about all this stuff. You know, I've got a life to live. I've got work to do, nine to five, you know, stuff like that. I don't have time to think about how do my feet feel, all the things. So we're just trying to get that person to feel initially.
Speaker 2:Now, if you've seen you may have heard this, sometimes people say that, oh, I was swept off my feet, or there were so many challenges that I felt as though drach has been pulled from underneath my feet. So feet give us a sense of balance, a centering in life. When life's difficult, we can use our feet to ground ourselves into the present moment. Secondly, we can also use to get a felt sense of the body. What's happening within your body?
Speaker 2:So we do a lot of work with that. We also do a lot of work, which I would suggest, lot of compassion, self compassion. So even without thinking about what the trauma is right now, we may not even go into that right now. Only maybe the history taking stage, might. Just what happened exactly?
Speaker 2:But then the second stage is resourcing. And again, like I said, it could be as short as a month, two months, six months. It could be even as long as a year. Whenever you are able to be in a place wherein you can then go into what actually gives you pain. It could be shorter for some reason.
Speaker 2:For some reason, just eight sessions. EMDR actually been known to give results even in eight sessions on a particular topic. You know? So again, depending on that.
Speaker 1:What kind of traumas are well suited for this, If you mind me asking.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. I think I would say it could be minor major any kind of somatic EMDR has been known to that. So typically, would work with one. But there is complex trauma also, which could be over a period of time and many layers added to it, which might require more work of, you know, untying the layers in that sense, so depending on each person. But I think for somatic EMDR, even for people with war veterans, a lot of beautiful PTSD, children from war torn zones.
Speaker 2:Beautiful work. I'm not saying it is suitable for everybody. So you got to see how does it feed. If it feels yeah. But if it doesn't feel okay, there are other modalities.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to interrupt with a question as you work through the process, because anyone that's listening to this that might be considering it, I want them they might be asking that question. So please continue.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So we put with that, you do lot of resourcing, like for example, grounding can be one. You're just connecting to your senses. Can you tell me five things that you can see in the room that you're sitting on? Or three things that you can sorry, four things that you can hear, four sounds, three things that you can smell, two things that you can taste, one thing that you can touch, just getting in touch.
Speaker 2:Can you hold senses together? So you are listening and you're also seeing. So again, we're just working on just getting in touch with our body, with our senses in that sense. Beautiful resourcing can be calm state. So calm state is something like anyone who's listening to this, if you can just if I can invite you again by choice, think of an experience, something that you've had, a place that you've been to or an experience.
Speaker 2:Or if it's a place maybe you've gone there once, many times, it's a place which you've read about or you've imagined anything which makes you feel calm. And now if you can just focus on that situation, And as you focus, if you feel comfortable closing your eyes, again, everything by choice, you can close your eyes. And if you can just bring your awareness to what are you seeing in that experience? What are you? Are there any sounds?
Speaker 2:Are there any textures which it reminds you of? Is there any smell? Are there any aroma, any fragrance? Anything that you can hear? You have different senses.
Speaker 2:As you do this, is there any sensation in your body? And then what are you feeling? And then if you can just, you know, slowly ask for you or whenever you're ready, open your eyes. Just trying to get into a place of soothing oneself and also developing this. Two things that we do when we do it in person is that before the person or maybe after the person does this exercise, we ask the person to give a cue word.
Speaker 2:So can you just give a cue word to this? Maybe this was a situation about the beach that you imagine. So if you can just give a name of beach. So tomorrow when you are in a place where we are visiting the trauma and you get a little unnerved, then this can be something that we can get back to. Another beautiful thing that we do is remember I was telling you about Francine Shapiro, who got in the walking through walking?
Speaker 2:She had discovered this EMDR, the technique, bilateral movement. So one thing is, have you heard of this butterfly hug? People are listening it, I don't know how well I can describe for you all. Maybe you might just want to just quickly look up on the net in that sense. But who are seeing it can see my hands.
Speaker 2:They go like a butterfly, and my thumbs are on top of each other, the center of my chest. And then I have my hands here, very gently, I start tapping. And as I start tapping, very gently again, go by how it feels to you. If it feels comfortable, if it feels soothing, then you can do the calm state again. And as you do the calm state, what will start to happen is you are integrating your brain.
Speaker 2:Remember we'll talk about that human connectome project, the research of different areas linked together? So as you start to act by
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. You cross so you cross your your arms across each other and then have your thumbs meet.
Speaker 2:Meet.
Speaker 1:And then to your collar collarbone. Collarbone?
Speaker 2:Right. And then your yes. And you gently, automatically tap with your fingers.
Speaker 1:Got it.
Speaker 2:Very gently tap it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:As that happens, the midline you've crossed of your body and different hemispheres of your brain, of your body, you're touching alternatively. You're doing what you're doing in walking. And that immediately tends to calm your amygdala down. As your amygdala calms down, you get in touch with all your empathy and your kindness and your intuition and your decision making and your all that beautiful in the prefrontal cortex back. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So all these are techniques that we do. Of course, are many more techniques, like, for example, the state of calm state. You can a you can have your circle of allies, a protective figure, a nurturing figure, maybe for somebody to be grandmother. There was a teenager who didn't have anyone. No nurturing figure, no protective figure.
Speaker 2:So you know what he did? He imagined a mountain. Because he said, When I imagine a mountain, I feel strong like a mountain. So different techniques, we do that. And then when we actually visit the trauma, we do it, we titrate little by little, little by little.
Speaker 2:And we do a lot in those situations when we do the bilateral movement, it could be a little more faster when we are doing the trauma, revisiting that. And it's always done in conjunction with someone who's with you, who can lead you through it. Because whenever it gets a little too much, you are always in charge and you can always say, I want to stop. And then you go back to resourcing and you end the session. We do something known as containment.
Speaker 2:We put the trauma, the problem in a container. And then we come back to it the next this thing, you know, so different. I I don't know whether
Speaker 1:I mean. Yes. Yes. No. That's all that's fantastic because you hear you hear about it, but it's almost like the door is shut behind the behind the session.
Speaker 1:And you gave a really good glimpse of us opening that door. So, Sunal, this has been an incredible conversation. Before we go, I want you to talk about any projects or things that you're working on that you'd like to share in any way that people, if they'd like to, could connect with you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I would love to. Anyone who just has any question also, anything that you want to comment, suggest, feel free. My email ID is solnetconnectmeditation dot com. M e d I t a t I o n dot com.
Speaker 2:And my name is spelt as S O N A L, S for Singapore, O for orange, N for Nigeria, A for apple, L for London. So you can connect to me with that. But two things I want to quickly tell you about is we have a beautiful programme which we're launching. We've already launched. We've done a soft launch.
Speaker 2:It's basically for organisations, which is called building emotional intelligence through mindfulness. So, do we be in a place wherein we are aware of our emotions and feelings, other people's emotions and feelings, and use that to determine our behavior and actions? How do we develop more empathy, compassion, collaboration between teams? As a leader also, so important to develop trust in your team. So, that program is there.
Speaker 2:Also, are working very, excited about the app that we're developing. The meditation app, feel, is almost going to be like a meditation teacher. Not totally, but as close to a meditation teacher as possible, in terms of it's going be ultra personalized. A lot of meditations in there, plus a lot of rare techniques, which you may not get to read about in books and podcasts. But these are from the teachers and the interiors, and they may not even tell you until unless they think that, you know, you're ready.
Speaker 2:But this is different layers of that app it will have. And depending on how advanced one is, one can actually go into those techniques, which typically one won't get in other places. We're working on that also. A couple of things that I just wanted to share.
Speaker 1:No. No. I'm glad you did. It's very exciting. I love I love your passion for this.
Speaker 1:I love because I know firsthand that the impact of these either through my own work or those that I know that this is real stuff that gets people where they wanna be which is actually ultimately happy, loving, and like you said, present with non gentle, judgmental awareness and and I would say I'll leave it with this is that if anybody repeating your words, I don't have time for this. I think you should ponder that statement because it might just be the exact reason why you do need to make time for it. So now I'll thank you so much for coming on today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Mike. Thank you for your presence, and thank you for your presence.
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