What Happens When a World-Class Bartender Stops Drinking w/ Derek Brown
Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and of course, your own mindful drinking journey. Derrick Brown was named one of the best bartenders in America, author of Mindful Mixology, and now a leading voice in the mindful drinking movement. In this episode, we talk about what changed when he stepped away from alcohol, how the culture around drinking has evolved since the February, and why NA drinks are finally being taken seriously. Derek shares what he's seeing inside the industry, what makes a great booze free cocktail, and what's coming next. Whether you're cutting back or just curious, this one's packed with insight and practical takeaways.
Speaker 1:Okay. Today, have Derek Brown on the show. Derek, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, bud.
Speaker 1:This is gonna be fun because you know what? I had to look it up. We had a conversation early in the podcast. You were number three, and we are on episode a 139 now. Amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I remember. I was in, I was just getting over being sick, and it was in a hotel room, I think, in San Francisco, wasn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Some That sounds about right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And, so everything was kinda, like, on my phone in the corner or whenever it, so I feel a little more relaxed today. I'm not sick or not recovering from sickness, and I'm at home. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love that. And, you know, we had an interesting conversation before I actually hit record about some of the things that you're doing with ex presidents and things related to mindful drinking, and we'll get into that. And, you know, another thing I want people to hang out for that I'm gonna hit you with is a little rapid fire about what your favorite NA beer is, your most underrated NA ingredient, and a couple more. So hang around to hear those, anybody that's here, because Derek is the guy to ask.
Speaker 1:But since you're number three in this episode, and we're a 139 now, think there's a good chance that some people might not know your story, and you have a wonderful story that a lot of people can take lesson from. So why don't you give a little bit of background as somebody who was one of the country's top bartenders and mixologists and thought leaders in that, and you switched to mindful drinking and consulting and hospitality on that side of things. So why don't you bring us up to speed on, like, how did that journey start Yeah. To sit now?
Speaker 2:Oh, happy to share. I mean, when you say one of the top bartenders, just to clarify, although no such technical position exists, I was technically not technically. I was, I guess, using another word. I don't know. I I my my caveat is escaping right now.
Speaker 1:Throw it out.
Speaker 2:The top bartender in the US government because I was the chief spirits adviser to the National Archives Foundation. Right? So that Isn't that a title? So that's that explains me in a nutshell. No.
Speaker 1:I Was it chief fun officer? Was that also a nickname for it there?
Speaker 2:Fun officer. No. You know, it's funny. I'm gonna I'm gonna get into my story, but I'm gonna tell you a little bit of story about the National Archives Foundation. So they had this exhibit that was about alcohol in America.
Speaker 2:And it was a really cool exhibit because it had all these artifacts ranging from the Volstead Act itself to, you know, different things from suffragettes, from, you know, different errors, from different presidents. I mean, it was an amazing array. I think they had, like, the the bill from Lewis and Clark for the amount of liquor they brought on their expedition. I mean, there was some really cool stuff in this exhibit. And so they brought me on to help promote it and to create a series alongside it that was about the cocktail, the history of the cocktail.
Speaker 2:Right? Because in the exhibit, lots of things, but they didn't really focus on the cocktail, is a very uniquely American thing. And so I helped to kind of bring in this panel of people. We did one every month for about nine months to talk about the history of the cocktail. Right?
Speaker 2:And so but when they first approached me about it and they said, you know, we'd like you to do this, I said, oh my gosh. This is amazing. They probably have these, like, treasure vault, like, full of, like, George Washington's rye whiskey. Because I don't know if you know this, but George Washington produced rye whiskey and was one of the top rye whiskey producers at the time. Wow.
Speaker 2:And I was like, oh my god. They're gonna have these samples. Nothing like that. No. I my my only job was to be a cheerleader for this exhibit, which was which was great.
Speaker 2:It was a great job, it turns out. But there was no, in fact, you know, historic liquor. But I did get to see some pretty amazing things, including I got to see the check that they cashed for Alaska. This was just randomly in one of their, you know, treasure vaults. The check cashed for Alaska.
Speaker 2:I was like, wow. This is a cool job. Yeah. Neither here nor there. I so I That is cool.
Speaker 2:Was working as a bartender, and I kinda rose up through the ranks. I, you know, I'd started working in bars and restaurants at 16 years old. And because of that, I learned to drink in this industry, which is a wonderful place, but not necessarily a wonderful place to learn to drink, at least in the inside. One in five people within the hospitality industry have a substance use disorder. And I think that that's underreported because that is self reported.
Speaker 1:I agree. Yeah. I agree. Coming from the back. I'd I'll remind you in this conversation that I was a barman in London and a bartender in The US, so I know firsthand some of the things that you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. No. I I remember.
Speaker 2:And I think that, you know, that learning to drink from, you know, old grizzled line cooks and lifetime waitresses is other lessons, great. Learning to drink, probably not the best. And so I went through my whole career just drinking at excessive rates, not really thinking about it, kind of thinking it was normal because within this industry, it was normal. It was normalized. And so I ended up, you know, in my 30s, my late 30s, just kind of in a place where I wasn't really happy with my life for many reasons.
Speaker 2:And one of the clear reasons was that alcohol had become my job, my hobby, my pastime. Everything I did revolved around alcohol, and that had a lot of negative outcomes, including my health Yeah. My relationships. And so I had to make a change. And when I made that change, I was pretty much, like, frightened to death.
Speaker 2:Because, I mean, what this is what I this is what I did. You know? Like, I was Derrick Brown. I was chief. Your identity.
Speaker 2:Top top bartender of the US government. I mean, for god's sakes, I had so much. I had a bar. I had five bars at the time. And so I I I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 2:And so I sat down with it. I spoke to my family and friends. I got some support in terms of therapy, therapeutic medicine. I addressed some of the underlying issues that were around mental health. And I realized that I didn't have to make a change in what I do at all except that I had to now focus on no and low alcohol and mindful drinking instead.
Speaker 2:And that meant that I could really still talk about great cocktails, great spirits, great wines, all of this stuff, but now I I could focus more on no and low alcohol products. And so, you know, it it was a a huge revelation to me, and it was right at the moment that things were kind of changing. Right? Around 2015, 2016, you saw the introduction of nonalcoholic spirits, which is brand new. These were distilled spirits made with just as much quality as a spirit with alcohol.
Speaker 2:Nonalcoholic beer started to get better. Alphletic came out, you know, things like that. And all of a sudden, we saw a sea change in what was happening, and people started adopting. Instead of people laughing at me when I say I don't drink, people are saying, oh, cool. What do you drink?
Speaker 2:And that's when I started focusing on mindful drinking. In the meantime, wrote a couple books. They're behind me. Spirit Sugar, Water Bitters, How to Cocktail Conquer the World in 2019 and then 2021, mindful mixology, a comprehensive guide to no and low alcohol cocktails.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You have a lot of great content out there. I love your social profiles. I love your books. So we're I definitely, at the end of this, wanna make sure to highlight where people can find all that information.
Speaker 1:And you know what? One one thing that I think a lot of listeners might be able to connect to that you just said there is that you didn't really in in your case, it's very specific to what you did. You were this expert in your field. You were invested with running five restaurants and probably a whole bunch of other things. And so you I I identified that if you changed, it would change your identity, but the case was the opposite, that you could keep doing the things you're doing.
Speaker 1:And I think many people gonna can take from that and realize that if you're gonna change your drinking, a lot of us will be like, I gotta give up all my friends. I can't go out anymore. I've got to take a different route home from work because I don't wanna go buy the bar or the liquor store, which, like, for some people, that might be necessary for a short period.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But for most people, that's just simply not the case. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that's really true. And I and and look. I mean, it is inevitable when you make a change like that you're gonna lose some friends, but it it's probably to your benefit because those friends are only around for the moments that you're drinking or you're drunk or you're having a good time. And by my definition, that's not really a friend.
Speaker 2:A friend is somebody there who's, you know, there for you in the ups and downs. And and I think that, you know, your true friends and people who really understand you and love you are going to be there regardless. And so I think that's that's really an important thing. You might lose a couple superficial friends, so be it. Your life's better for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, it'll probably the 3AM out until whenever is gonna go away just by default. It's not gonna be something like, oh, I wish I could have that back, to be honest. And like you said, if people are showing up for connection, that will last. And if they're showing up for the alcohol itself, that'll fade away.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And I think that once if this is for you, because I think everybody's journey is unique, but for those people who can still go to bars and still go out in that manner, eventually, you'll be able to return. You know? And you'll you'll see that it's great.
Speaker 2:It's a great experience, but a certain time of night at a certain amount of drinks, it's just not that fun as you thought it was. You know? Like, that was that was really, like, something that caught me. After a while, I was sitting sitting next to somebody who had been drinking five, six drinks, and they just kept repeating the same thing over over again, and it was annoying. And I love them, but
Speaker 1:I Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna have coffee with you from now on because in the evening, this is not really working for me. I already heard what you said. I don't need to hear it five more times.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, to me thinking, like, going to a bar at 7PM and staying till seven I mean, just till midnight or one, like, five or six hours, it's out of interest to me anymore. But, hey. You know what? Before I lose this thought, you know, I see parallels. Do you ever do you did you ever at one point watch the show Cheers and think, could be like like Sam and be able to serve whatever and still not drink?
Speaker 2:You know, it's funny. I never really thought about that, but I loved Cheers. I love Cheers. I thought it was a great show. And it is, by the way.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know if you know this, but Cheers was a kinda ground zero for the designated driver campaign.
Speaker 1:No way. I didn't know that. No.
Speaker 2:A group of Harvard students and professors had come up with the campaign because before that, believe it or not, people just they either did it without a title or they drove home drunk. And, obviously, that's a problem. So the idea was, why don't we create this category, a person called the designated driver? Let's put it out there in the media and Holly or, yeah, Hollywood and television is a great place to start. And so Cheers was a place that they talked about that and introduced it.
Speaker 2:And so now it's just part of our vernacular. It's a normal thing. And, certainly, drunk driving has gone down, although there's a slight incline recently. But I think, overall, you know, it has declined, and that was that was one of the reasons. So cheers to cheers.
Speaker 2:But I you know, the the the the cast of bartenders on that was great. You know, you had Woody Harrelson, and you had Coach. Gosh. I love that show so much. And and RIP George went, you know, George.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Was this real name George? Wait. Something went. Oh.
Speaker 1:No. No. You got it right. You're good.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Norm. On the show, it was Norm. That's what I was getting wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Norm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No. I mean, it my I was visiting my dad a couple couple months ago, and he put it on for old time's sake, and we watched it a couple episodes. And I remember it was Thursday nights growing up on NBC or whatever in when you had to actually make sure that you were in front of the TV to watch things. Yep. And, yeah, that was a fun show.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And, you know, just to the record, as much as I love Norm, that guy had a definitely had a problem.
Speaker 1:It's so funny. I watched it in such a different lens this time.
Speaker 2:Well, I was especially the one that that I was always fascinated by was Frasier. Right? Uh-huh. You remember Yeah. Frasier?
Speaker 2:Because Yep. Sure was a psychologist. I loved how he had, like, this, like, a steep view of the world and opera and Freud and all this, you know, intellectual. But the guy spent a lot of time for a psychologist in a bar and often during the day too. I I was thinking, well, I mean, this this is maybe not the best example of what a psychologist could be.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, it wouldn't be accepted today. Like, people would literally look at Norm sitting there because there were times when he have, like, you know, 10 empty mugs in front of him, and it's just a good laugh at that time. And now we know better that that doesn't lead to happiness. That doesn't lead to anything good physically speaking that, socially, that's just not really the given anymore.
Speaker 1:You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's really interesting because when you look at those characters, one of the biggest things that they mention repeatedly throughout the episode is their relationship to their partners. Right? Like, their wives and how troubled they are. So you can see that, like, a big part of what they're doing is their principal relationships are challenging, and they're not dealing with it.
Speaker 2:Right? Instead of dealing with them, they're sitting, drinking away. And that I don't know. That became, like, a funny joke in the eighties and nineties, you know, the kind of married with children culture. But, look, if you're gonna marry somebody and spend a lot of time with them, you really should like them.
Speaker 2:And you really should, if you're having troubles with them, try to figure those troubles out. Right?
Speaker 1:Isn't that the truth? Yeah. You know? I mean, even in those context, things have have definitely changed. And, you know, I know we're a little bit all over the place, but we'll bring it back to where our central theme on where you are in the industry and and one of the leading voices in the mindful drinking movement.
Speaker 1:But, you know, I I watched one of the college age coming of age movies the other day. I think, oh, it was American Pie, where they're all centralized around red cups and kegs. And I remember those days in the in the nineties, and that happened before that also. But those days are just not
Speaker 2:those movies aren't being made the same way, and those days are just not the same now. Well, even funnier than that, I saw recently there's a podcast called soberness with Kat Greenleaf, a really good podcast. And she had the guy who was principal guy in American Pie. I'm forgetting his name. Was about to Google it, then I was like, I can't Google.
Speaker 2:I can't Yeah.
Speaker 1:I know who you're talking about, but he he went through some issues with alcohol.
Speaker 2:He's sober. Yeah. And and so I saw him speak. He's a great speaker, actually. Fantastic.
Speaker 2:But but yeah. So no. It's it's different. And and the fact is that those movies had a a somewhat negative impact on college drinking populations because the idea is that students going into that have this expectancy effect. There's an expectancy effect where they think that everybody's drinking at enormous levels, and so they end up drinking at these outrageous levels, which cause them harm and harm to people around them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And one of the most effective interventions, it turns out, is just to tell them, you know what? Not everybody's drinking like that. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, when we're young, we're we just really want to fit in. Know? Like, I have a 10 year old. I see it all the time. You know?
Speaker 2:Like, I I see how he wants to fit in with the people around him. He doesn't wanna be ostracized. Nobody really wants to be. But as you get a little tougher as you get older, you know? And when you're going into college, it seems like you're a man or a woman or a person at that point of of you know, you're ready.
Speaker 2:You've got your morals. You've got your ideas, but you're really still so young. And you you know, that social pressure weighs so heavily on you, and you think, I gotta do it. This is what I have to do. Right?
Speaker 2:And it sounds like it's gonna be fun. But as we've already kinda indicated, once you get to a certain level of drinking, it's just not really that fun. It it might be fun to tell the story about how you almost died the night before. You know? I can see that there's some storytelling in there that's exciting, but but when it comes down to the experience itself throwing up and, you know, like, being passed out and not being able to connect with other people, that doesn't.
Speaker 2:That's not really that fun.
Speaker 1:No. It's it's fun until it's not. That's kinda the way I put it. And, you know, it's so funny. I'd never really thought about it, but the thoughts come up now that we're speaking on these terms.
Speaker 1:I thought about you know, I never was really taught how to drink, and most people aren't. You know, some people are fortunate. Like, their parents may have a conversation. Usually, probably, those conversations come from people that actually had to really sit down and think about their their drinking. And but by and large, I think in our generation, that was not a conversation.
Speaker 1:So how did we learn? Learn by watching movies like that, modeling the behavior as normal. And it's I did a podcast with a guy named doctor Jason Kilmer who runs an alcohol lab experiment at the University of Washington. And one of the conversations, the topics was around that most people assume, like, they'll see so and so drinking, so and so. So then they lump it in and think the majority of people are doing these behaviors that we then connect to write off our own behaviors.
Speaker 1:But as you said, the truth is that's actually just not the case.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, humans look around for the sort of normative behaviors. We wanna, like you said, wanna fit in. We wanna connect. Being social is such a critical part of our humanness.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, when we learn to drink, not for everybody, but for some people, we learn from our older siblings or our our friends, and maybe they didn't learn from somebody. So I I do think it's a really important conversation. And I'll tell you when it becomes critically important. Right? It's always important.
Speaker 2:But especially if you have a a a child or you yourself or a child have gone through traumatic experiences, what they call adverse childhood experiences. Right? These can be as simple as divorce and as complex as sexual abuse. But if somebody's gone through that experience, there's these adverse childhood experiences, or they call ACEs, can be really strong indicators of substance use patterns later. So if somebody's gone through that, it's really critical that you have a conversation with them.
Speaker 2:Also, if somebody has autism or ADHD or other mental health issues, it's important. That's something that, for me, I'd gone through certain experiences in my life, and I had bi bipolar disorder. And those have a high correlation with alcohol. I didn't know that. I just didn't know that.
Speaker 2:And, you know Yeah. I mean, I wanna clarify. I'm not an expert on mental health, and I'm not an expert on substance use. My expertise is around mindful drinking, which is around social conformity, which is around things like that and, you know, optionality. But it is important if you have gone through those experiences or you know somebody who's gone through the experiences to have conversations about substances and especially drawing them back to getting help with therapy, primary care physician, maybe peer recovery groups.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. Those are all great points. And I, you know, maybe you don't have all the letters, but you've given it it's it's part of, you know, your everyday thought. You speak to the people with the letters like I do here on the on the, after their name on the, podcast, and you write and think about it.
Speaker 1:So you definitely your opinions weigh in with with pretty good weight. And, you know, as far as the kids go, sometimes I think about it just simple things like this is normal. This is not normal. Right. This is, you know, this is excessive.
Speaker 1:This is well, this would depend on the person. This is more in a range if you want to partake. Yes. It's like, it doesn't have to be this big philosophical, like, this is bad. This is good.
Speaker 1:Okay. Because if you tell kids no, I think, then they're gonna resist. But if you say if you find yourself in this situation, just so you know, this is when you're out of bounds, and this is when, you know, this this is a safer zone than, you know, than having nothing at all and watching American Pie and thinking that's normal.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's right. I mean, I think the key is to connect that. And this is how I define mindful drinking, although I'm certainly could be, you know, different definitions are even approved upon. But my definition is that it's drinking in line with your values and goals.
Speaker 2:And I think that that's really important to recognize. So so an example is my son loves baseball. He's particularly talented at it, and he you know, he's on his he's a pitcher starting pitcher on his travel team, things like that. And when I talk about alcohol with him, I say, you know, this would not necessarily advance the person you wanna be. If your goal is to be on the Los Angeles Dodgers, you know, a couple drinks every now and then is not gonna hurt you.
Speaker 2:But drinking excessively over a long period of time, especially with the family history you have, that's really going to hinder and hurt your performance as an athlete. For other people, maybe they have different goals. Maybe the goal is to be in a, you know, positive relationship, you know, study for a test, you know, have a great job, whatever it is. Drinking excessively could and or using other substances could be a hindrance to that.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that because that can mold to any situation. You know? Because your values are not like a set of rules. It's something that you align with, connect with. And, actually, shout out to a listener actually wrote in, last week and came up with a list of values, and I found it so impactful that she said that I actually wanna do one of my ten minute Mondays next week on it.
Speaker 1:So I'm glad you brought that up. But you are an expert in the industry, so I wanna jump into your specialty and insights there. So you work with bars, restaurants, even major companies and corporations. What kind of conversations are are happening behind the scenes and maybe in you know, out in the open that are new around alcohol?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I think that we have a a much more of a willingness to embrace a diversified menu that includes no, low, and full octane, let's say, options. Right? So the largest players in the field are saying, okay. We get it.
Speaker 2:We need to adopt to adapt to this situation, and we need to adopt nonalcoholic and low alcohol alternatives. So the struggle is in terms of that is over. Right? So for so for a long time, I think we had to make the case for it. We had to say, here's how many Gen Z people are changing their relationship with alcohol.
Speaker 2:Here's how many American 50% wanna change their relationship with alcohol. Here's the money that you're leaving on the table because 25% of the population already doesn't drink alcohol. You're you know? And that's we had this lead really heavy at that. I'm not saying we don't have to in certain instances, but when it comes to the the larger companies that are, you know, looking at the data, they're they're talking to consultants about this.
Speaker 2:They're like, yep. We understand. This is a sea change that's happening. It's not going away. It's not a trend anymore.
Speaker 2:It's not like we can have two, you know, nonalcoholic sodas on the menu and and cash it in. We have to have a comprehensive program that is as thoughtful as whatever program we have already installed with alcohol. Right? So I think that means that you can't just put a RTD on the menu, which is a ready to drink cocktail, and expect that that's enough for people or have one nonalcoholic beer and expect that that's enough for people. If you want people to come into your bar, restaurant, hotel, spend money, be happy, you have to have a menu that offers them a genuine choice.
Speaker 2:And keeping in mind that ninety percent of the people who are drinking these nonalcoholic products also drink alcohol. So you're not just doing it for the sober few, which is important. I love the sober few. Shout out to the sober few. But for the the majority of people who, you know, are willing to or will drink alcohol, they want that too sometimes.
Speaker 2:And that goes back to mindful drinking. Right? Sometimes they're just it's just about the fact that they want to, you know, take off for the night. Or maybe they're in a group of people that is a business group and everyone's drinking. They don't wanna feel excluded.
Speaker 2:So they grab a Heineken Zero, they grab a Guinness Zero, they grab a, you know, another drink, and they feel like part of the group. And that's an important part of it. So so you gotta offer genuine choice, and that's why I'm so happy to offer consulting services to these people.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Well, you know, that was sort of the tone the last time we talked, but I feel like it's way more solidified now that we're talking here about eighteen months later.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Do you feel that? Does it feat seem different even in that short amount of time?
Speaker 2:It does. But I also want to point out that even though there's been this growth, especially the amount of products and the interest in it, that it still is a small percentage of adoption. Right? So that's why I focus on the larger players. I think the people who have the the data know what they're doing.
Speaker 2:But you have the majority of restaurants in The United States are independent restaurants. Majority of bars in the restaurant in The United States are independent, and they're still struggling to figure it out. And I get it because they don't have consultants and data, and they can't hire a Derrick Brown to do the same thing that I do for Hilton or Marriott or what have you. So I think that the key there is, you know, to we have to keep proliferating that information and getting it out there so that they have options, and they can get the support that they need. Because, ultimately, the goal is to be able to walk into any restaurant, bar, hotel in The United States and feel that whether you drink alcohol or not, you could sit at that bar.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I agree. What do you think what do you think the solution is there? This might be the, catch 22 question or million dollar question, but, like, what's the solution to get out of these private, restaurants? Because I will say, you know, there there's definitely more options.
Speaker 1:It's definitely not it doesn't feel as weird to me anyways to order an NA option at a table that maybe people are drinking. But, nonetheless, like, I I still find myself let down by a lot of the options here in at least in The US.
Speaker 2:Well, the solution is you. I mean, that's the that's the key, Mike. I mean, what you're doing is awesome. This program is amazing. More people talking about it.
Speaker 2:More people asking about it. More people sharing their stories and information. Like, that's it. I wish that there was some, you know, exciting new marketing, you know, way to make this happen, branding way. We'll call it zebra striping and people are more excited about it.
Speaker 2:But when it comes down to it, the best and single best way to get this information up there is to talk about it. And I think that, you know, getting the this this podcast out there, other podcasts talking about it, getting people within the more mainstream because I do recognize that this is a little bit more of a niche podcast. Getting people to talk about it is important. So Yeah. Keep yapping about it, and then eventually, it's just gonna be normal.
Speaker 2:Right? I mean, Mimesis, like this this kind of we we're talking about that in terms of students. Right? They think, oh, the students, they drink this, you know, this way, so that's way I should drink. But when they see somebody like you who's obviously very successful, you know, has has, you know, frankly got their shit together and is out there in the world doing good things, and they they're like, oh, cool.
Speaker 2:This guy probably drinks a lot. Nope. This guy is out there, you know, preaching the gospel of no one low. You know? Then that is an impact.
Speaker 2:That's gonna be an impact on people. And I think that, you know, kudos to you and the people who are doing this. I I'm so grateful that I'm here today. So thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, thank you as well. But it's always nice to receive that. Oh, speaking of podcasts, plug your podcast real quick.
Speaker 2:So I have a podcast on the National Academy of Sports Medicine, NASM network called the Mindful Drinking Podcast. And on it, we have we talk about a range of things, you know, really everything that has to do with mindful drinking. So it has been really exciting. We've had recently, we've had doctor Tim Stockwell on there who is one of the foremost researchers on alcohol and moderate drinking, which I think was pretty eye opening. We also had Amy Ward who is a bartender.
Speaker 2:She is the head of Safe Bars, which is an organization that trains bars to do buy bartenders to do bystander intervention when people are, you know, drinking and doing you know, not just because of alcohol, but just in general, they're out there, you know, doing things that are potential potentially could lead to sexual violence, and bartenders and bar guests have an opportunity to intervene at low levels to help support the people who need it. So it's really good.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Very cool. You always got cool stuff going on. And, you know, we talked a little bit about this. So, like, you know, I think you're saying grassroots level, get to the people, talk to people, make the message heard.
Speaker 1:But then also there's this top down approach where we get people that are influential, they can have reach into places that are are either hard to get to or it's just beyond the scale that, like, a single person or a group small group of people can get to. So talk a little bit about what you did with some of this presidential stuff. I'll let you tell everybody about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think that, you know, once there's enough of a grassroots movement, once there's enough noise, then there's always a interest at higher levels. You know what mean? Which I think is really cool. I think that there is there are certain aspects of our government.
Speaker 2:Look. Okay. I don't wanna get into all of the complexities of the government right now. Things get are are in a weird place for some Yeah.
Speaker 1:Please don't. Well But
Speaker 2:at the at the level of service, the people who are are are working in, let's say, NIH or NIAAA or, you know, they are working hard every day to try to help Americans. And it's hard to see them because it's sometimes obscured within political rhetoric, but there's so many good people doing such good work to try to help us. And and when we make noise at the bottom and they hear it and they they they help support that message from the top, I think that's really important. So I'm in a program called the presidential leadership scholars, which is a really great program that was started by George w president George w Bush, 43, and president president Clinton as a way to bring people who are working to social change and to support that mid career and help them gain additional leadership skills. And it's also supported through the LBJ Foundation and through George h w Bush or president forty three, basically.
Speaker 2:Sorry.
Speaker 1:There's a
Speaker 2:lot of strings of numbers and letters there. These are important people. Yeah. But they started this, and and we go through, you know, six different modules where we learn about aspects of leadership, everything from partnerships to persuasion. And it's an amazing program, and the goal is to help support what, you know, the change that we wanna see in the world.
Speaker 2:And I think I don't know for sure, but I think I'm the first person to focus on hospitality within it. And I think that there are lots of people who have focused on, you know, substance use or different health campaigns, but specifically mindful drinking. I might be the first person in this program. And it's an amazing program. Through that, I've learned a lot of skills that I'm applying now, and I you can hear that people who are working within the government, within different agencies are trying to support the work we're doing.
Speaker 2:So there's there's there's, you know, pressure from the bottom, pressure from the top. And, ultimately, what I think the world that we wanna see, everybody wants to see, that is talking about this, is one where we have less pressure and more choices. And I think that that's something we can all get behind.
Speaker 1:Yeah. A 100%. Well, such a cool thing to be involved with, so I'm really glad to hear that. And what a great representative to to be doing that. So alright.
Speaker 1:Let's get into some of your your fun stuff here, and please correct me if I say the wrong terms like mixology and bartending and that kind of stuff. So, you know, but before before we do this, I wanna address one little thing that sometimes comes up, and that is, like, some people will say, especially in the sober community, that NA options lead to desire for the real thing. Mhmm. What do you what's your take on that?
Speaker 2:They can. I mean, I think it the thing is that we're all so unique in our our experience with of recovery, if we are in recovery, that there are different triggers for different people. Right? So for some people, it's that walk into the bar. For some people to sip a, you know, nonalcoholic beer that tastes so close to the original.
Speaker 2:These can be things that lead I don't know if there's been enough studies to to to be definitive that everybody across the board has been affected. I am a person who don't I don't drink alcohol, and I do drink nonalcoholic. And it literally I would never think of having an alcohol version of of it because of it. But but so I think that what we have is each person's experience and story. And the one thing I will say without a shadow of a doubt is there's not a single drink in the world that's worth risking your life over.
Speaker 2:You know I mean? Yeah. So if a person is I'm not sure. I don't know. Maybe.
Speaker 2:Maybe it would trigger me. I would say you have some discussions before you get to that that sip of nonalcoholic beer. Right? But I think for the vast majority of people, especially people who maybe they've given it up and for for a period of time they feel comfortable with, I think, you know, being able to drink nonalcoholic products is probably okay. But, again, this is something that I can't determine for somebody.
Speaker 2:They have to determine for themselves. For me, no problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. I mean, I I'm in a 100% agreement, and this is your answer is pretty much exactly what I thought. I mean, I think it's just the same thing. Like, should I give up drinking forever?
Speaker 1:Should I take a ninety day break? Should I can I moderate? Well, you only know what the right solution is, and you can try it, and it might not work. And then you got an answer to try something else. And I think the same thing goes with that.
Speaker 1:Like, if you find yourself like, it it gives you that release that you were like and you enjoy it, and it doesn't really make you want to do things that you don't plan on doing, then it seems fine. If it does the opposite, then maybe that that's your answer. You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, recovery is such a difficult process. I mean, it and and I distinguish that between mindful drinking. They're on a they're on a spectrum.
Speaker 2:Right? When it comes down to it, I think drinking a little and stopping drinking altogether probably exists somewhere on a spectrum. But so does light and dark. Right? And so somebody who has a severe alcohol use disorder, they have to be particularly careful.
Speaker 2:Somebody who has a mild or moderate alcohol use disorder probably is in a different bucket. So, yeah, we're Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's so it's so nuanced by personality, history, biology. You name it. We could go down the list. So yeah.
Speaker 1:Alright. So, you know, you talk about four key traits, intensity, texture, bite, and length. Can you walk us through that when it comes to, I guess, knowing low alcohol?
Speaker 2:Yeah. When you're building a drink or you're building a product, the one thing that we enjoy out of alcohol, which is fair, I you know, like, I don't you know, none of this is to say alcohol is not good because it's certainly people enjoy it. But if we're trying to create something that's similar to that, especially in a cocktail or a spirit, we have to look at those four characteristics as important. One is intensity of flavor. Right?
Speaker 2:Because alcohol is this incredible solvent, and it works much better than water to extract the flavor from certain substances. Right? So let's talk about gin as an example. Gin is named gin after your neighbor, which is named after which is the Dutch word for juniper. Juniper is the the botanical that's in gin.
Speaker 2:There's a lot more, but that's principal one.
Speaker 1:Is that why it tastes like pine needles to me?
Speaker 2:Exactly. That's exactly right. So so juniper, the berries are from, you know, coniferous trees or whatever. I think that's the right term. Somebody who's into you know, expert on trees can correct me.
Speaker 2:But but it's from this they they they both have these certain oils that are going to release that flavor. And so when people have gin for the first time, like, oh my gosh. This tastes like exactly what you said, like Christmas trees. Or this tastes really intense. Well, that's just one example, you know, of of the flavor that comes out of alcohol.
Speaker 2:Right? So intensity of flavor is there. You know, you never really accidentally drink a cocktail. Right? Like, there's an iced tea and there's a tea based cocktail with alcohol in it, you can tell the difference right away.
Speaker 2:Right? So I think part of that is the intensity of flavor. Other part is the bite, which is kind of somewhat interrelated or the pickets, as I call it. Right? That's that you know, stopping power is another way to say it.
Speaker 2:It's something that when you're drinking, instead of, like, housing it back, although certainly some some people do that, not advised, it's the one that makes you stop and contemplate it. Right? And I think that that's why cocktails are usually smaller than a Coca Cola, you know, although Coca Cola is getting smaller now too. So I think that that stopping power of peak and sea, that's part of it. The the texture is really important because, again, let's use iced tea as an example.
Speaker 2:What's the difference between iced tea and a nonalcoholic cocktail? And these are those examples, but it's gonna be richer. Right? It's gonna be have more weight to it or body, and that's important. And then lastly, the length.
Speaker 2:What I mean by that is the space that's not taken up by juice or sugar. So when we refer to long cocktails as bartenders, we're talking about cocktails that are in a Collins glass that are that's gonna have soda or have some kind of tonic or something else added to it. So that length is it can't just be juice and and sugar. That's not a cocktail.
Speaker 1:Makes sense. Yeah. No. I mean, I think you would probably look at me as a barbarian because I pretty much will slam any of it, and I have to get them all in those long glasses.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's funny. You well, hey. You've you've found a category that you can do that with for the most part as long as you're not drinking too sugary of cocktails.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's true. You know, you what's funny is you said you don't accidentally do it, and I guess some people have have stories that they have. But I will tell you, like, when I was in Spain, they an NA beer is has been a thing there for fifteen years or something like that. You know?
Speaker 1:And I went and got one when we were there, and you can just go to the grocery store and pull one beer off the six pack. You know? You don't have to buy the whole thing. And I got out to the car, and I was waiting for my wife to finish grocery shopping.
Speaker 2:And so I drank about half of that.
Speaker 1:Was like, damn. This thing tastes like so much like the real thing. Well, I turned it over and the NA beer company apparently has a regular beer company and realized that I was but I I definitely knew. I was like, how can this taste like the real thing? No.
Speaker 1:Well, it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and they're getting only better at making it taste like a real thing, but still there's always a little bit of a difference. But, yeah, that is that is a I mean, I that happened to me at in New Orleans. I was drinking Heineken Zero, and I had two and I was it was a long conversation with friends. I'll have another Heineken Zero.
Speaker 2:And the third one was a regular Heineken. So and I didn't notice because they're both sharp and cold. So I guess you can Yeah. Gently drink it, but, generally, you you can taste the difference.
Speaker 1:I was a little pissed actually at the time because I was doing a six month break, and I was five months into it, but, you know, that's just what it was.
Speaker 2:That's a great lust. I mean, that's and that's people have to understand. You can make a mistake. That's totally okay. If you need any, you know, justification for that, you can say Derek Brown said, it's okay to just fuck up and then just get right back on the horse.
Speaker 2:You know? Like, that's a big important lesson in life, and it so applies to people who are reducing or eliminating alcohol because it happens so often, and it's so normal. It's fine.
Speaker 1:You're gonna
Speaker 2:be alright.
Speaker 1:Perfectly said. You know, it's not if we'll fail. It's when and how we deal with it. 100%. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Let's do, let's do a quick fire round. So so
Speaker 2:what is your favorite NA beer spirit brand right now? Oh my gosh. I am loving Michelob Ultra Zero. It's just so
Speaker 1:nice. Okay.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Thought no. I think I'll be hung for this by, like, people who are beer purists, but, you know, I was at the my local baseball team, the Chesapeake Baysox, and they had a Michelob Ultra Zero, and it was cold. It was crisp. It was perfect.
Speaker 2:So that's I it's not the most complex, but just on the it's 25 calories. It tastes like the real Yeah. I think it's delicious.
Speaker 1:What about on the spirit side of things?
Speaker 2:I'm enjoy I've recently came across Opius, which is this, like, line of nonalcoholic sort of like Amaro type drinks. And they have one that's with coffee, and it's barrel aged, and it's just awesome.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Most underrated NA ingredient.
Speaker 2:Oh, either vinegar or aquafaba. Aquafaba is just chickpea water. It's so easy. It adds body. It's almost like using egg whites, and a little spoonful apple cider vinegar will increase that and weight of something.
Speaker 2:It's really good.
Speaker 1:Alright. Interesting. So where do you get something like the obviously, vinegar is something that we can get. But the other one, where would you look for something like that?
Speaker 2:A can of chickpeas. Lit
Speaker 1:Literally.
Speaker 2:A bunch of those things are like pennies for what you're serving. But take a cup thing of chickpeas, the hole two holes in it so it pours better. Pour it through a strainer. You've got aquafaba. And so if you see anything on your bartender's menu that says aquafaba, it's really just chickpea water.
Speaker 1:Interesting. What so what drink would that go into?
Speaker 2:Any, like, nonalcoholic sour. Like, I'm making this drink called the pinch hitter, which is with lemon, ginger syrup, apple cider vinegar, and aquafaba, and it's it does it's great. It works you know, like, it's tastes so complex, and it's really just lemonade. But it's it really does the job. Interesting.
Speaker 1:Okay. One drink recipe that you want everyone to try.
Speaker 2:Oh, espresso tonic. Get there. That is such a good drink, and you can get it almost anywhere. So, like, if you're in a bar or you're a restaurant and they're like, we don't have any nonalcoholic options because we're stuck in 1994. You know, like, we're whatever they're doing wrong, you could do right by just saying, great.
Speaker 2:Can you just take that espresso that you make and add some tonic to it, a little lemon peel, and I'm good to go with ice. So
Speaker 1:Very cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Alright. I'm gonna do all of these. You know, one thing I wanna ask you is that how should people think about NA options as just to because I think a lot of people are let down. They think it's gonna taste exactly the same or be an nonalcoholic option that mimics the flavor. Is that correct, or is there a different way to think about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'd I'd have two minds to this. First, we apologize. We have let you down. I think that, like, historically, these cocktails sucked, and a lot of these spirits and beers sucked.
Speaker 2:So we let you down. We didn't do a great job. And as it's come back, we've they've gotten better, but there's still a gap. And so we have to improve that. So there's there's a a small league category of things that are excellent.
Speaker 2:There's a bunch of stuff that's pretty good and some stuff that's good and then a lot of trash at the bottom. So I think, you know and by the way, that's true of almost any category of consumer goods. But I think that the way to think about it is, first and foremost, you have to recognize there's not alcohol in there, and so it's not gonna taste exactly like alcohol. They do their best. And in some cases, come pretty close, as we've indicated, like Michelob Ultra Zero.
Speaker 2:Because, I mean, you know, there's only 4% alcohol to begin with. So there's not 96% of it is not alcohol anyway. So I think that that's the way to think about it, to recognize as you get higher, you know, like, let's say bourbon, which could be as much as 50% BV or alcohol by volume, that's just not gonna taste like bourbon right now. It's just not. But you can get something that maybe works within a cocktail and is pretty good.
Speaker 1:Makes sense. You know, I think I wanna know what brand you like. So I really like the Spanish, the toasted multi type beers, and they actually have one at the grocery store, and I always slaughter the name, like, Clowhauser or something like that.
Speaker 2:They Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But are there any multi beers that are sold stateside that you like? I'm asking for myself here.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is it Estrela Dam? I think they make a
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. Very, very multi beer.
Speaker 2:They make a nonalcoholic version. Pretty good. Cost dollar is is is good. I like that stuff. And, yeah, a lot of European nonalcoholic beers are are pretty good.
Speaker 2:So so I I you know, if you are into beer and then you're switching nonalcoholic, very easy transition transition. There's so many good Yeah. Yeah. Beers. So but but those are
Speaker 1:I hear wine's a little harder to transition. I have yet to try in any wine, to be honest.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. It it's complicated. It's just gone it's not gonna taste the same, but there are some really good ones that go with grapes. I mean, there's one called Zeronimo.
Speaker 2:It's awesome. You know? Oceano. Zeronimo is from Austria. Oceano is from Santa Barbara, I think.
Speaker 2:And then got, you know, Giesen, which is from New Zealand. There's a couple really and Leitz from Germany. So there's some really good brands out there, but the vast majority of it is challenging. We gotta get better.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Alright. Last question here. And you can approach this from a broad perspective or hospitality perspective, but where do you think the mindful drinking movement is heading over the next two to three years?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a big question. I think that we're seeing a lot more people adopt it and and with an interest in it with the you know, the fact is that there's already a huge amount of people in The United States that wanna change their relationship with alcohol. That number 50% or more Americans are gonna change their relationship with alcohol is from the IWSR, and it's it's true. But in terms of a movement, I think that we have to do a lot more to be positive about the adoption of mindful drinking and nonalcoholic products. The fact is that to a certain degree, it works.
Speaker 2:Fear tactics, fear mongering, telling people how horrible alcohol is. And guess what? I mean, it's not hard to find information about how alcohol is not great for you. The most important thing, I think, personally, is to show people a better way, and that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to show people that there's optionality and and not force people by finger wagging to behave this way, but to invite them into our world and say, you know what?
Speaker 2:There's delicious cocktails and delicious drinks. There's a social life. You can wake up the next morning and have a great day and do it all again. And that's all we want for each person, not to tell anyone what to do, but to let them come to these decisions where their lives theoretically and hopefully are better for it.
Speaker 1:I knew you'd have a beautiful response, nice and succinct, so I could ask that big question. So I couldn't have said it better myself. Alright. Hey. If anybody is listening and wants to learn more about your projects, what you got going on, why don't you tell anybody where they could go?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think the easiest place right now is to go to drinkcompany.com where I do a lot of cons that's my consulting company. If you're interested in learning more about that. If you want to subscribe to my Substack, it's positivedamage.substack.com where I I usually put out information. I've been bad about it.
Speaker 2:And mindfuldrinkingfast.com is another thing that you can check out if you want to to attend mindful drinking fast next year. We'd love to have you.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, Derek, thanks so much for coming on today.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thanks so much, Mike.
Speaker 1:This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped hundreds of thousands of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 2020. And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30% in ninety days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking habits. It's not super restrictive. So if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week.
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