The Woman Changing How the World Sees Non-Alcoholic Drinks with Victoria Watters
Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and, of course, inspire your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform. Published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. Today, I'm speaking with Victoria Waters from Dry Atlas about the rise of the nonalcoholic beverage. Victoria shares insights from her extensive data on craft brands and the increasing interest from big alcohol companies.
Mike Hardenbrook:We'll discuss what this trend means for consumers looking for more choices and how it's influencing the future of drinking. So tune in for a conversation on what may be coming to a store near you. Okay. Today, I'm here with Victoria Waters. Victoria, thanks for coming on.
Victoria Watters:Thanks so much for having me.
Mike Hardenbrook:Alright. Well, let's just start a little bit about you. Can you tell us about where you're from, where you live now, and maybe something that you're really passionate about this month.
Victoria Watters:Sure. So I have spent the last 10 years in New York City. Right now, I am speaking to you from Nicaragua because for the past year, my husband and I have been traveling the world, exploring all the best non alcoholic beverage brands worldwide, and we're almost finished that tour, with our last stop here in Central America. So New York, New York, my whole career, it's, you know, my favorite city in the world. It's a great city for mindful drinkers, and I've just learned so much exploring around the world as we have for the past year.
Victoria Watters:Right now, I'm most excited about everything that we're building at Dry Atlas, which is my media company dedicated to alcohol alternatives. On a personal level, I've just had such a wonderful time traveling around and, surfing around the world as well. So that's something that I've been really enjoying lately.
Mike Hardenbrook:Oh, I love it. And, you know, when I had no idea you were in Nicaragua, because guess what? By coincidence, I actually lived in Nicaragua for a little while.
Victoria Watters:Oh, really? Well, it's a gorgeous place. You're very lucky. What brought you there?
Mike Hardenbrook:Oh, I was doing the 4 hour work thing in my twenties, and I was surfing and traveling with a laptop. And actually, mostly when I wasn't doing that, I was either drinking Tonja or Victoria, the 2 main beer brands. So you actually gotta tell me about the nonalcoholic there because I know very little about it since I was there in my twenties. How has that been?
Victoria Watters:Yeah. I have to say, I'd have to admit that probably this leg of the trip for me is more about the surfing than it is about meeting with beverage brand. Did a lot of that in Europe and Asia. We did have a Victoria beer the other night. I had to try it, of course.
Victoria Watters:On the nonalcoholic side, there are some really great nonalcoholic flavored seltzers, but we did have to import some bitters from my favorite brand, All The Bitter, which does alcohol free bitters. So if we could just mix it with soda water here because the the options are pretty limited.
Mike Hardenbrook:So are you in San Juan de Sur?
Victoria Watters:Yes.
Mike Hardenbrook:Okay. Well, remind me after to connect you with a friend of mine who has the biggest catamaran in the, bay there, and maybe he had something set up for you.
Victoria Watters:Nice. Will do.
Mike Hardenbrook:Well, speaking of drinking, I read that you're something called a flex drinker, which I wanna talk about. But before we do that, why don't you share since you're in this world of alcohol and nonalcoholic, beverages, share, like, your journey that brought you to that around alcohol.
Victoria Watters:Sure. So revisiting alcohol for me started around 4 years ago, which was right before my husband opened Spirited Away, which is America's 1st booze free bottle shop. And that venture was born out of our own search for alcohol alternatives. We saw brands like Seedlip hitting the market, but they were really hard to find even in New York City stores. So, you know, in the pandemic, my husband was mixing us a daily cocktail, not something that I'd ever been used to, frankly, drinking daily.
Victoria Watters:But even that one cocktail per day started to make us feel a little groggy and, like, we wanted to keep the ritual, but just revisit what was going into it. And he and I went to Aster Wine and Spirits, which for non New Yorkers is just an enormous liquor store. Sure that we would find seed lip and maybe some other options, but we were shocked to understand that in New York City, it's actually illegal for liquor stores to sell nonalcoholic products, aside from some special religious nonalcoholic wine. It's a funny kind of, holdover from just the the crazy liquor laws that we have here in America. So we decided that it was time for a dedicated space for these products that were hitting the market, and thanks to the pandemic, and its effect on retail prices, we were able to open a store with really no risk, from a from a capital intensity perspective.
Victoria Watters:And we decided that it was going to be Douglas who opened the first bottle shop that's dedicated to to the seed lips and more of the world. And we opened in November 2020 with maybe 2 dozen products on our shelves. And today, we have over 250. And there are over 1300 on the market globally. So the space has exploded since then, but our personal interest in it was just looking to maintain the ritual of a cocktail, a nice way to punctuate the day, but without the downsides of alcohol that we were feeling, just from a health perspective and and sleep quality.
Victoria Watters:And since then, we've obviously, fallen in love with the space. We launched Dry Atlas as a sister business, as a media company to help people understand the 1300 plus options that are on the market. So even if you're not a New Yorker, even if you can't come to Spirited Away, you can understand a little bit more about what are nonalcoholic spirits, wines and beers, how can you use them, how can you enjoy them. And from a from a daily habits perspective, you're right. I am what I would call flex drinker today.
Victoria Watters:I define that as someone who is probably equally likely to have an alcoholic cocktail or a non alcoholic one. And for me, it really just depends on a few factors that that need to align for me to be interested in drinking an alcoholic cocktail. I need to make sure I'm not getting up early the next morning. I need to make sure that I don't have a lot of productivity needs the next day, and, it needs to be a really well crafted cocktail for me. The bar is just higher as to to what to what I'll enjoy these days.
Victoria Watters:But, frankly, lately, with with all of the nonalcoholic options that are on the market, I'm finding fewer and fewer reasons to be drinking alcohol, just with its effect on my sleep in particular. So I would say, I'm probably down to maybe 2 or 3 drinks a month at this point without being too conscious of it. It's just that the the bar is higher, and I'm not finding that many drinking occasions for alcohol these days.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. This is this is all great. I mean, you you were really early on, and I as far as, like, the bottle and the nonalcoholic shop, and I would be lying to say it. That's not something that that it's something I haven't ever thought about because, you know, I just when I started becoming more mindful around it, it just, like, seemed like such a no brainer because, there really isn't any options. I had no idea about the the legal reasons behind that.
Mike Hardenbrook:You know, in comparison to the so the mindful drinking was amazing that you've got this kind of on your own. It was 4 years, so it's before, like, you know, Sunnyside really started to try and start to educate the market and same with many others who are starting to speak out and say, hey. You know, like, we need to actually take healthier things around that. Sorry. Sorry.
Mike Hardenbrook:I'm gonna pause for a second because I lost my train of thought. I'm so sorry. That. Oh, I want I wanted to go into the to the to the drinks. So can we talk about, like, the actual drinks?
Victoria Watters:Sure. That we offer at the
Mike Hardenbrook:store Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So so so you had the mindful drinking in mind, and I'm actually you have this expertise knowledge around the product. So I'm really curious to it to learn a little bit about nonalcoholic drinks.
Mike Hardenbrook:I read on the website things like bitters. I've heard that that gives it a bite or more alcoholic taste. I think it's called shrubs, was it? Maybe something like that. And I'm really curious.
Mike Hardenbrook:So maybe, like, could you talk a little bit about the product lines? Like, what's, like, new and innovative? And and maybe even are there any cocktails that you think rival the the alcoholic, version of them?
Victoria Watters:It's a great question. So to ground listeners in the category, I would say there are 4 buckets to what we would call alcohol alternatives. So first, that's nonalcoholic spirits. 2nd, it's wines. 3rd, beers.
Victoria Watters:And 4th, ready to drink mocktails. So things that are coming in a can that are a little bit more elevated than just a daytime soft drink. And in the spirits category, you have lots of products that try to mimic a traditional alcoholic spirit. So that could be a tequila, a gin, or a rum. They're really innovating on the on the food science front to try and recreate the real experience of drinking alcohol from the taste to the mouthfeel to how it performs in mixology.
Victoria Watters:So that's an exciting subcategory for that reason. Also in spirits, you have what we would call novel spirits. So these are beverages that don't really have a reference in the traditional alcohol world, but bring that same level of craft and complexity that you would expect from an alcoholic beverage. So there are ones that are really based on a lot of concentrated botanicals. There are ones that, are hemp based or kava based.
Victoria Watters:So really just bringing, a a new kind of flavor to your palate that you really have to sip and see for yourself. Everything from still reds, still whites, still roses to sparkling variants of those. And then similar to the novel spirits, you have a subcategory that we call wine proxies. So these aren't dealkalized wines like the others I've mentioned, but, rather, they're beverages that are built from the ground up to give a wine like experience, but without starting as an alcoholic wine as the others are. And I would say that's one of my favorite subcategories within alcohol alternatives are the wine proxies.
Victoria Watters:Proxies. Beers, I think, are pretty straightforward and and probably the most well known and accessible side of the alcohol alternative space. You've got enormous brands like Athletic that are just doing huge volume in places like Whole Foods. But then you've got some really interesting craft brands that are taking a kind of more unique approach to to the nonalcoholic beer space with flavor profiles that are pretty wacky and fun to try. And then on the ready to drink cocktail side, similar to spirits, you've got a lot of mocktails that are, you know, like a daiquiri or dark and stormy or a margarita that you might know.
Victoria Watters:And then there are some ready to drink spritzes, for example, that might be Aperol like or Campari like, but not exactly trying to replicate that experience. And then you mentioned bitters. I would say that's a category I love. It's one that doesn't fit so neatly into these 4 buckets I've just shared. But bitters, there are alcohol free bitters, which are a really great way to elevate all of these beverages that I've just mentioned, even wine, nonalcoholic wine.
Victoria Watters:If you add a few dashes of alcohol free bitters, that's a great way to add the that you're looking for. And I personally love just a bitters and soda. It's my go to order when I'm out at a bar and they don't have mocktails that aren't just juice based concoctions, bitters at bars typically have a low degree of of alcohol content to them with a few dashes and a soda water. So that's not for someone who's strictly alcohol free, but also I do have friends who bring their own alcohol free bitters to the bar and just add it themselves to a seltzer, which I think is a pretty cool hack. So that's really the alcohol alternatives category.
Victoria Watters:I think, you know, there there are hundreds of brands now. Everyone's taking kind of their own unique path. So there's something for everyone. Maybe if you've tried a a nonalcoholic spirit and thought, this doesn't taste like a tequila and I'm not interested in this, you might be interested in a novel spirit or maybe a nonalcoholic beer that is, in many cases to me, virtually indistinguishable, from the the alcoholic version.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. I love that. That's all great information, and a lot of it I don't know. And, actually, it it reminds me of a saying, you know, don't change a ritual, change the ingredient. And I don't remember who coined that, so apologies for not giving credit where credit's due.
Mike Hardenbrook:But not only is, like, I think a lot of people think, like, changing ingredients. So the pro the ritual is like making a cocktail at home. But for me, it's really about, like, getting in the car saying, okay. I'm gonna take a break and do something. So before it would just be, like, go to the wine store and pick something.
Mike Hardenbrook:Like, that was my ritual. It wasn't like getting every the ingredients out. So having an actual physical location, I can repeat that ritual and sort of, like, satisfy that need, by doing it. And and not only that, the ritual comes in, like, coming into the store, looking at the labels, being able to speak to somebody like you that's knowledgeable, like, trying something different, taking it home, getting it ready. Like, I love all of that.
Mike Hardenbrook:So I think that not only, you know, are you providing, good quality products, but you're also, like, kinda giving an outlet for somebody a an alternative ritual, not just an alternative, ingredient. So I love that. I'd love to talk a little bit more about dry Atlas because you founded that with your husband. Can you share and you talked a little bit about it here, but can you share a little bit about the story behind founding Dry Atlas and, you know, what where it is today?
Victoria Watters:Sure. So Dry Atlas started in June of 2023 as a database of all of these types of beverages that we've been discussing, mostly in response to questions we were getting about the broader industry and what types of beverages were available beyond the ones that we've curated for our store. And we found that there was a lot of interest actually in just aggregating this this industry that has exploded in the last few years. And beyond just a directory of products, we found that there was a real need for context for them and education about this space, which for us, having been in it for a few years, didn't feel like something that needed demystifying. And so with Dry Atlas, we're on a mission to really normalize and demystify nonalcoholic options for consumers worldwide, so having an impact beyond lower Manhattan as we do with Spirited Away as a retail store.
Victoria Watters:So what started as a directory in June has really blossomed into a niche media company, that reaches 5,000,000 people each year. And we're really excited about that next layer of consumer who hasn't really heard about this category, but is is curious to to learn more. And to your point about rituals, to understand that a lot of the drinking ritual is really about the ritual itself. It's not necessarily about the alcohol content, and you don't really come to realize that until you do find some fabulous nonalcoholic options that that really fit your palate. And one thing we're we're really excited about with Dry Atlas is that discovery, is introducing people to products specifically.
Victoria Watters:You know, we're for whatever reason you come into being interested about nonalcoholic options, that's great. We welcome people who are mindful drinkers, flex drinkers, sober, and even people who might just consider themselves a typical drinker, but, wanna see what it's like to switch it up a little bit, and and see what it's like to have that ritual without the alcohol. And I think the idea of ritual is really important, to touch on that a little bit more. We've we've done a little bit of research into just the the brain science behind social drinking and everything that happens when you are out with friends and and having a cocktail. And I'm no Andrew Huberman, but from what I've read, so much of our enjoyment of that moment has nothing to do with with the ABV content of the beverage.
Victoria Watters:So much happens in our brain, for example, when we hear the clinking of ice in the glass, when we see other people holding a glass, and there's a lot that you can achieve about that experience without the downsides of alcohol. And and at Dry Atlas, we're really excited to help people discover that for themselves.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yes. I love all of that. And it's so that is so true. I mean, I'll even go back to what I said about ritual is that I I guess I would say I'm a flex drinker by that definition. I've actually not come across that term.
Mike Hardenbrook:But by all definition and the way that you put it, I was I'll go very long periods without it, then I'll I'll maybe just, like, you know, here and there or whatever. Not a whole lot of thought, not a lot whole lot of planning. But in between that, sometimes I'll be at the store, and I'll call my wife and say, are you sure you don't want a bottle of wine? Because she she just doesn't does whatever she wants. And sometimes it's just so I can go do it for her, and I actually by the time I bring it back, I get a little satisfaction out of it.
Mike Hardenbrook:So I I love the the awareness factor that you're doing that. And you mentioned that, like, this this, a movement that's exploding. Why do you think this mindful drinking, nonalcoholic, products, is such a fast moving movement right now?
Victoria Watters:Mhmm. I would say it's three factors converging at once. First, I think, of course, the pandemic, which was such a huge had such a huge effect on all aspects of consumer behavior. I think that was a big trigger for this movement because a lot of people started to reevaluate their overall life habits, their overall life satisfaction, at the same time that a lot of other people also started drinking more. And I would say with our daily cocktails, as I mentioned in the pandemic, that certainly was true for me.
Victoria Watters:Even though it was limited to just one drink a day, that was more than I typically had, and I wasn't feeling great. I think without the pandemic, I probably wouldn't have thought twice about my alcohol consumption because it was so moderate and so normal in my mind. So I think the pandemic had a lot of people revisiting revisiting themselves, revisiting their health. That's one.
Mike Hardenbrook:I think people also in the pandemic got very vocal about the amount they were drinking with less shame, and people all sort of realized that you also are doing that as well? I mean, that comes to mind.
Victoria Watters:Yes. I think that's that's exactly it. I think we were a lot more communicative. We had a lot fewer distractions. So I think a lot of people were kind of flocking to the Internet and sharing their experiences about really all aspects of their lives, and I think this was a key one for many in the pandemic.
Victoria Watters:And then the second one is more on the tech side. But I think tech wearables, like Oura Rings and Whoops, really started to show people the effect actually on their body from even very moderate levels of drinking. And I think the most prevalent example here is sleep quality. And you have a lot of people on Twitter, for example, talking about and showing charts about, hey. I had one drink at 9 PM, and look how this tanked my my sleep quality.
Victoria Watters:And so I think there's a bit of, like, the biohacker movement that's that's helped the non ALK movement in conjunction with the pandemic more broadly having people reevaluate their habits. And then on that point, but more related to science, I think there's just more information now than ever about the the true effects of alcohol on people's bodies. And I think you have, for example, Andrew Huberman as a really important force on this front. His podcast episode on alcohol was hugely viral, and he was quite clear as a neuroscientist that there is no level of drinking that we can consider completely average moderate or heavy drinker is having. But I think information like that increasingly came to light.
Victoria Watters:I think, also, for example, I think there's just an awakening in general that's happening out of the pandemic on a lot of aspects of life. So those three things, I think, came together, really at a at a, I think, a time that made it likely for people to start to have a big consumer shift. I would say that's the the demand side. On the supply side, another thing we saw happening, was really an increase in the technology that's available for dealkalizing beers and wines, an increase in the craft in terms of the novel spirits and the wine proxies that I mentioned. So the supply itself at the same time was was proliferating and becoming higher quality.
Victoria Watters:Of course, there's an aspect of people seeing the demand and then deciding to create beverage brands in this space, and that becomes a a bit of a loop there. But I'm also excited outside of the revisiting of drinking habits. I'm just excited from a craft perspective, from a food technology perspective, all of the amazing things that are happening to create just products that that are a level of quality that we couldn't have imagined, a few years ago, I think, with the key exception of Seedlip, which was one of the, I would say, most important brands that kicked this off almost 10 years ago now.
Mike Hardenbrook:Wow. Yeah. I mean, one of the cool things that I didn't mention is that you deliver alcohol, nonalcoholic insights, news, and recommendations to over 5,000,000 people annually. I'm really curious in any of those insights or, the work that you've done. Has there been a willingness from the alcohol, like, industry to enter into this?
Mike Hardenbrook:Has there been resistance? Is it mostly craft? Do you think it's gonna, you know, get overtaken by big money? I'm really curious if there's any insight on that.
Victoria Watters:That's a great question, and it's a it's a hot topic right now in the alcohol alternatives community. For example, Anheuser Busch has committed that 20% of its portfolio is going to be non alc within a certain period of time the next few years. You see Diageo as a large alcohol company making similar commitments and in their investor documents, making it very clear that nonalcoholic is a focus for them going forward. It's, to me, I think, a good thing that the big alcohol companies are paying attention for two reasons. Number 1, you have to imagine that these companies have huge resources in terms of market research and strategy.
Victoria Watters:The fact that they're entering the space to me shows that it's not a passing fad. It's it's a long standing consumer ship that's here to stay. And then number 2, with those budgets and resources, they are really able to normalize nonalcoholic options way faster than the small brands might. So, for example, you see Heineken. Heineken is putting a quarter of its global advertising budget into its 0.0 offering.
Victoria Watters:You see huge campaigns behind Diageo's Captain Morgan non ALK version. Pranod Ricard just launched a Bee Feeder 0.0, and they opened a dedicated facility in 2022 to creating nonalcoholic spirits. So you have to imagine that they're going to be expanding. And these companies are also investing in the smaller nonalcoholic options, which I think is great to see as well in terms of an allocation of capital toward towards something good. So the the big players are coming in.
Victoria Watters:I think one criticism for the big players is potentially on the quality front. I think, you know, as with anything, you've got to try it for yourself and see if you like it. At the same time, I think there are some, some brands that are just objectively taking a more thoughtful approach to formulation, than others. So I would say just because it has a big brand behind it doesn't mean that you're necessarily going to love it. Among our Dry Atlas readers though, they do love Guinness 0, they love Heineken 0.
Victoria Watters:I personally think Peroni 0 is one of the, nonalcoholic beers that tastes most like its alcoholic variant. So I I, as a consumer, am happy to see that big alcohol is getting into this space. I am, obviously, though, as someone who is a mom and pop retailer, works a lot with the smaller brands, I'm a champion of the smaller brands, and I'm really excited between our work at Spirited Away and our work at Dry Atlas to help elevate those smaller brands that, you know, don't have the money to be sponsoring huge athletes or have their logo on a soccer field, etcetera, as we see the bigger
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. I'm a huge fan of the the little guy, but at the same time and I wrote about this in my book is that they are masters at persuasion and masters at mass marketing, and it's not just throwing a sign up or a TV commercial. It's in everything you do. It's attaching their marketing to things like nostalgia that sitting on a curb with your dad is better with a beer or, you know, obviously, sitting at a at a beach. Everybody now thinks that they have to have a drink next to it to actually make it a photo moment.
Mike Hardenbrook:So I I think that that's, the positive, I guess, to use it in the more ethical terms, not that necessarily that's what's driving them, but I think educating, them more people to be able to see, hey. This is like you can actually go out and have fun and have these drinks and, like, have a great time. And it's really not about the drink. It's about the people connection anyways, and I think a lot of people here understand that. I'm curious on all those insights.
Mike Hardenbrook:Is there or just all the touch points that you have in this industry, is there, like, one favorite NA story from 2023 that just, like, caught your eye or that you remember or, like, an interesting insight, something like that?
Victoria Watters:From an industry perspective or more consumer perspective?
Mike Hardenbrook:Well, it could be either.
Victoria Watters:I'm trying to think there was I I track so much news every week, and it's sometimes my head is spinning trying to keep track of what happened when. I think from an industry perspective, the story that has really excited me the most is just to see athletic brewing as a nonalcoholic beer brand just do so well and grow so quickly. I just read that in Whole Foods, athletic beer is the top selling beer, including among alcoholic options. Wow. And as and I think beer is a really accessible category.
Victoria Watters:It's one people understand well. So I think if someone's gonna if someone's going to understand that drinking can also just be about the ritual and not necessarily the alcohol content, I think people like Athletic are are doing a really good job of opening those doors for consumers. So I'm excited to see that. On a much more niche level, I was really excited to see Ben Branson, who's the founder of Seedlip. He just launched a bitters brand called Season, and I interviewed about him about that a few weeks ago.
Victoria Watters:First of all, I love to see that Ben Branson as an entrepreneur who sold a majority stake of Seedlip to Diageo is still in the non out game. He's still excited about this space. I love to see that bidders as a really niche category is getting a little bit more attention. As I mentioned, it's one that I think is a really versatile product for for people to use in cocktails. It's a great product for people to bring with them to slip into a seltzer if they're out somewhere with no good options.
Victoria Watters:So I love to see I love to see that on the more niche end of the spectrum. And then overall, I would say, last year, in particular, just seeing from research companies like Nielsen the increased interest in nonalcoholic options and the kind of revisiting of the role of alcohol in people's lives. Every time new statistics came out, it was just more and more in in support of the idea that nonalcoholic options are are being normalized. I think one great example is Nielsen, which tracks of non alc buyers, how many also drink alcohol. And when I first started watching that number about 2 years ago, it was 70% of non alc spirits, wines, beers buyers also drank alcohol.
Victoria Watters:The latest figure from Nielsen is 94%. Wow. So that's really showing that this category is not just for people who are strictly sober or not just for people who even consider themselves probably mindful drinkers, but it's really permeated consumer attention to the point where if you're out of Whole Foods, you'll probably, out of curiosity, pick up that athletic brewing case just to try it. And I think that's really how this category is going to continue to expand and mature.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. That was one question that I kinda skipped over, which was do you have, like, anecdotal feedback on that? I mean, the numbers are are insanely convincing, but, you know, obviously, you have people walking in to your shop. You know? Is there do they share that, oh, I only drink NA or, like, you know, is there, like, sort of a pattern that you've recognized by the people that come in?
Victoria Watters:Yeah. That's a great question, and I think we get a lot of cool insights just being a retailer and being on the ground in addition to what we do with Dry Atlas. I remember in the very early days of Spirited Away, before we even had hired any store associates, I was covering the store for a couple hours on the weekend to give my husband a break because he was really 247 in those days. And I remember a man in his early twenties walked in, I think assuming that it was just a a bottle shop, quickly realized that this was not alcoholic liquor, kinda stared at me point blank and said, you know, this is nonalcoholic. I said, yes.
Victoria Watters:Everything in here is is nonalcoholic, he says. Then what's the point? And turns on his heels and leaves. And I thought, okay. That's probably not gonna be a returning customer for us.
Victoria Watters:Certainly, you you saw a lot of that 4 years ago, especially
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. That was like a that's more of the something that you would hear, you know, 5 years ago or or more. I think that's less and less. I mean, these people still like to joke about it, but I really think that that narrative is phasing out.
Victoria Watters:For sure. And that's exactly what I was about to say. We've seen, even in the last 3 or 4 years, a huge shift, in in that kind of attitude. I remember early on as well, we were lucky enough to be featured in a Wall Street Journal article, which when you're 2 weeks old as a small business is just the dream. But I had to tell my husband, do not read these comments on wallstreetjournal.com because it was, I wouldn't say vitriol, but it was a lot of people, saying, you know, this business will never last.
Victoria Watters:This is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. And then, of course, if you've been tracking the nonalcohol space since then, nonalcoholic bottle shops have opened across the country, and, you know, we weren't the only ones to think that it was a good idea. You saw the same thing, for example, on our TikTok comments. Our first video that went viral having to do with the store had just a lot of people really negative on on the concept of our business and as well negative on the concept just of of non Alk Spirit Wines and Beers. It's a lot different today, and it's it's funny when you when you look at the TikTok comments, for example, of a video today, yes, there will still be the people scratching their head or even the detractors, but at the same time, other people are jumping in in the comments saying, well, have you actually tried any of these?
Victoria Watters:Such and such is actually pretty good, or check out the Heineken 0.0. So you now have more of a discussion happening in in places like that. And back to the store, the people who come in to Spirited Away, it's typically that they have some baseline familiarity now with with the space, and they're just looking to be guided to options that they're going to love as opposed to needing to be educated on the space overall, which was certainly a lot of what we were doing at Spirited Away back in in 2020.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. Definitely. I mean, I've noticed it. I know in writing my book, you know, when I thought about, do I wanna include a chapter about how to deal with reject like, people trying to push you to drink or how do you, like, answer that I'm not drinking. And I just decided that that first of all, you have to build up the confidence and feel confident in it.
Mike Hardenbrook:So it needs to come from within, and I don't think just deflecting is really a good answer. But I but I also think that this notion that, oh, they don't drink. They must have a problem is phasing away. I also think that people are accepting, like, they're taking a step away from alcohol, and that's okay, and people don't question it. So that cognitive dissidents that used to be there where people would feel bad if you weren't drinking about themselves, and so they try to get you to join their tribe, or there's a couple other different layers of that.
Mike Hardenbrook:I think that that's really phasing out, and I think you're echoing that with kind of, you know, since when you first started and where you are now. And another thing that you've mentioned is that, like, technology is part of what you're you think started it. I think technology, obviously, being here on Sunnyside, can also be part of the solution. So I'd I'd love to get your feedback on, like, what role does products like Sunnyside have in this mindful drinking movement?
Victoria Watters:Sure. I'm a huge fan of using data to support your goals. I feel like a lot of people with resolutions, for example, will make kind of sweeping claims about what they will or will not do without actually having a plan as to how they'll get there. So I love I love things that help you quantify what you're trying to do. You know, for me, as I mentioned, I I do a little bit more of a low tech approach with my mental checklist of, do I wanna have a drink today or not?
Victoria Watters:I think for for someone who wants to, I think, make a more lasting change over time, quantifying is the way to go. And I also have been a fan from afar of Sunnyside because I think the all or nothing mindset can be really intimidating for people and also set them up to fail. For example, dry January is a huge theme in our industry. For those who aren't familiar, it's when people commit to ceasing all alcohol consumption for the month of January. And, actually, if you look at anything that Spirited Away or Dry Atlas has put out in terms of content or communications, we don't really remark on that at all.
Victoria Watters:Because for us, the exciting thing about this category is how to integrate it into your day life, not just as a challenge that you're going to to make for yourself. So whether you're tracking your sleep with your Oura ring or your Whoop, or you're using an app like Sunnyside, I think the most important thing is having a quantifiable way to track are you making a long term change for yourself that you can actually sustain over time. And I'm no habit expert, but I do I do strongly believe that from the non alcoholic beverage perspective, having those options on hand, having them in your fridge, or just having a game plan for what you're going to order when you're out, that, I think, just increases your success of of reaching your mindful drinking goals, which was supported by an interesting research study that I just read out of Japan, which actually studied what is the effective availability of nonalcoholic options on drinking levels. And they found, as a result of that study, that participants who had been moderate drinkers before, participants who were given for free a fridge full of non ALG options for the duration of the study had significantly lower rates of drinking than those who were just trying to moderate, without any other options available to them.
Victoria Watters:So for habit change, I think it's, as you mentioned, looking at what are the rituals and what are the things you're doing every day, and how can you make a different choice if that's what you're looking to do, and really preparing ahead of time. So stocking your bar cart, stocking your fridge with options that are going to be able to plug into what you're already doing so that you can have that longer term change you're looking for.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yes. You're speaking my language. I mean, it's it's a few thing. It's planning, but then also knowing that it's it's not an all or nothing scenario. There are ways to do it.
Mike Hardenbrook:And and a big part of it is goal setting, planning ahead of time, and then sticking to that plan and having a way to track it and keep yourself accountable either to yourself or with others. And I think technology brings us together beautifully in ways, that maybe we would feel disconnected or we're doing this on our own, which I think is one of the beautiful things about Sunnyside is having that community, knowing that there's other people out there that are probably at a bar and just they have a soda water and lime, or they're just saying, no. That's okay. Today's a a dry day, or I'm not drinking right now. Which brings me into another question because you do all this travel.
Mike Hardenbrook:You're going through Europe. You're going through Asia. And I feel like the perspective the American perspective is is What are the, like, kind of the global attitudes that you've experienced that are, like, really, like, stand out to you?
Victoria Watters:Mhmm. I would say in Europe, the first thing I noticed was how integrated non alcohol options were on menus, particularly nonalcoholic beers.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yes.
Victoria Watters:Yes. Yeah. And in Portugal, for example, the big Portuguese beer brands have been producing non alc variants since the early 2000. So
Mike Hardenbrook:Can I say something real quick? The funny thing is that so about 8 years ago, I lived in Spain. And I remember going to the store and they had, you know, 24 packs of the nonalcoholic beer. And I was that guy that walked into the shop and thought to myself, what's the point?
Victoria Watters:Yeah.
Mike Hardenbrook:So, yes, I definitely noticed that. You really sparked a memory in my mind.
Victoria Watters:That that completely aligns with what I was seeing across Europe. And it was interesting to me because you think about a lot of European cultures and you think about, you know, wine in France, or it's all about aperitifs in Italy. And I feel like there certainly is obviously a very prevalent social drinking culture, but at the same time, it's not this kind of black and white approach to it that I think we have here in America. And and I think there's probably a few reasons why America's different in that respect. But, what I love to see a lot of in Europe as well is lower ABV drinks, and which, of course, are permeating the American market in the last 5 to 10 years with, you know, the prevalence of spritzes, for example.
Victoria Watters:But I love to see just the optionality throughout Europe, and and one country that really stood out to me was Denmark, for two reasons. Number 1, the food and beverage innovation in Denmark is on another level. I think a lot of people are familiar with the really fine dining restaurants that come out of that area. But number 2, specifically for a cocktail bar I went to in Copenhagen called Bird, which organized its menu by no, low, and high proof, just 3 sections like that, with an equal amount of cocktails within each section. And it was all there, equally weighted.
Victoria Watters:Nothing about choosing a low or no proof option would make you feel like it's the secondary choice or it's the lame choice. So I just love to see that integration too and even how these options are being presented. And and what I also love about Europe is, obviously, just a higher appreciation for leisure than I think we have in America, and a higher appreciation for taste in in food and beverage. So, you know, when I was choosing to have an alcoholic cocktail or with people who were people were, I think, comparative comparatively immersed in the experience and really enjoying it in a way that I don't feel in America for the most part. So so that was Europe.
Victoria Watters:I would say Asia was a very different, kind of set of surprises to me. And it would hard it would be hard to generalize the entire area, but I will say on a country by country basis, for example, Japan, which I think many people associate with heavy drinking, we see they've got a very intense work culture, the so called salarymen are work hard, play hard, they're going to karaoke bars late at night. I was shocked then when I stepped foot in Tokyo to see in the grocery stores how many non alcoholic options there were, from Suntory and Asahi, which are 2 of the biggest companies there, just so many no and low ABV options at every turn. And and Douglas and I were just so pleased to see that in a country where we kind of expected it would be fewer and farther between. But then at the same time, you look at a place like Hong Kong, for example, where we spent a few weeks, it's very much, still an an alcohol culture, relatively fewer options, some some budding brands and and budding booze free bottle shops there, but I think it's it's gonna be a long time before Hong Kong feels like New York, for example.
Victoria Watters:So it's just been great to see the different approaches worldwide from the consumer perspective, the different ways that the brands are approaching, what they're doing, and really to explore and kind of revisit consumption culture in general in America, and how can we draw from the positives of how things are are enjoyed whether in Europe or Asia?
Mike Hardenbrook:Amazing. Yeah. I would think also on the the karaoke bar thing and the things that I've seen on TV that are usually kind of, like, concentrated on that probably because it makes for better entertainment. I'm curious. How so how many countries have you gone to, and what's the goal?
Victoria Watters:I should probably know the exact count on countries. I would say it's at least 15. And the goal with this year abroad was to just explore the best in nonalcoholic beverages abroad and explore drinking culture abroad. So, you know, in each country, if there's a brand that's based there, we made sure to meet with them. We were so fortunate to be taken to the production facilities of a lot of these brands.
Victoria Watters:One that stood out to me, again, in Denmark was, the production facility for a wine proxy brand called Murri, which just has some of the kind of craziest scientist vibe type people in this kind of far flung production facility in in this kind of shipping yard area, smoking rhubarb and really combining ingredients that I'd never heard of before. To be on the ground like that and see all of the effort that goes behind so many of these options was wonderful. And then, for example, when we were in Amsterdam, we met with Lucas Bowls, which, for Americans who might not know, Lucas Bowls is the oldest cocktail company in the world. It's almost 500 years old. And they recently acquired a nonalcoholic spirits brand, and they, in their own portfolio, are launching nonalcoholic versions of their traditional spirits.
Victoria Watters:So it was great to learn more about the history of this century old cocktail company, meet with its executives, and understand how after 500 years of producing alcoholic beverages, they're starting to dip their toes into the non alc space. That was pretty cool to see as well.
Mike Hardenbrook:So when are they gonna have a network TV show where you're going around the world showing everybody all these places that you're going?
Victoria Watters:Well, you'll you'll have to help me pitch that because I would definitely do I would definitely do another lap. There were there were things that we were so fortunate to have access to, and then at the same time, every time we left a country, we would get notes from brands saying, hey, we didn't know that you were here. You know, we wanna show you this. Can we show you that? So there's so much to explore.
Victoria Watters:And then just as a consumer, I was recently speaking with the BBC about the trend of alcohol free travel. You know, you don't have to be in this industry to to explore and get exposure to awesome nonalcoholic options while you're abroad. So I would say for anyone who's considering trips abroad or even even within the states to different areas, there are nonalcoholic bars to explore, dedicated shops in different cities, and then so many options, you know, even on the airlines as you're going to and from, to have a nonalcoholic beer, you know, have a best day brewing when you're on Alaska Airlines, or have an athletic on JetBlue. For for the casual traveler, I think it's a really exciting time for nonalcoholic options as well.
Mike Hardenbrook:That's great. I I actually, it rolls me into another question. In where do you see if you had a crystal ball in the next 5 years? Because we've come a long way in the last 5 years, especially 10 years. But in the next 5, 10, maybe even 20 years, what does the future look like?
Mike Hardenbrook:Do the bars look different? Does the entire, retail industry look different? Does even the social dynamic look different? I'm sure you've thought about some parts of these. Do you have any any, view of what the future might look like?
Victoria Watters:Sure. The main trend I'm tracking on this front is what I'm calling ABV optionality. So that ties to the concept of a flex drinker, which we've discussed in this podcast earlier. To me, the future is all about optionality. I think, certainly, there are going to be people who, for their own reasons, can't be touching any kind of alcohol.
Victoria Watters:And, fortunately, for those folks, I think there are going to be even more 0.0 ABV options for them, to enjoy at home or out at bars and restaurants. I think for the mindful drinker consumers, the flex drinker consumers, what we'll see that that they'll enjoy is just the more seamless integration of different cocktails and and beverages at different ABV levels on a menu. So, for example, Bird, the the cocktail bar in Copenhagen, that approach of no, low, and high proof. I think we'll see more of that. When I was speaking with Ben Branson about what he's doing after Seedlip with his new brand, season, He he was saying, hey, Season Season's alcohol free, but we don't lead with that in in brand.
Victoria Watters:You'll see it's 0 8 0 percent ABV on the back. From his perspective, and he's, you know, been a pretty visionary guy in this space for a while. From his perspective, going forward, ABV becomes just a a trait of the product that isn't going to define the whole product. So I think what we're gonna be looking for as consumers are just great tasting beverages, and you're gonna make the decision as to whether you want 5 or 20% ABV depending on what you're depending on what you're feeling. And then from the product side, I think we'll see more ABV optionality in how products are presented to consumers.
Victoria Watters:A really great example of this is a seltzer brand called System Seltzers. They I would consider them a hard seltzer brand, but their whole approach is this system, this multi pack of seltzers at 8, 5, and 0 percent ABV, and they look quite similar. If you're enjoying them at a party, I don't think anyone's gonna be flagging that you happen to now be drinking the 0% can when maybe you started with the 5 or 8 or you've been crushing the 0 all night. I think we'll see more of that as well, from the product side. And and my hope is that this this concept of nonalcoholic beverages, I hope it doesn't become this binary thing of, you know, I'm not touching alcohol, so I'll have these.
Victoria Watters:I I like to see from Nielsen and other research companies that it's more people deciding to moderate and be more flexible because I don't think it's realistic that everybody is going to give up drinking cold turkey. But I do think for public health and individual health, it's a really wonderful thing that they have more options and that these options are being presented in a more normal and seamless way alongside alcoholic ones.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yes. I 100% agree optionality is is what I foresee as well, so I couldn't be more on the same page. I think I even take it a step further, and maybe you've thought about this. I talk a little bit about psychedelics. I'm a big advocate for psychedelic assisted therapy.
Mike Hardenbrook:I'm here in Boulder, and, you know, where a lot of the ground 0 is starting to happen on what's gonna happen, next for all the states in the US nationwide. And I I could even foresee, you know, depending on how things go and what the the legislation looks like that even things like cannabis, THC, same with psilocybin, or maybe some other compounds where you could basically, you know, a la carte your drink in any kind of compound or psychotropic that you'd like. So I think I think the the future is gonna look very different than it is now. That's what I'm thinking, and it sounds like you do too in many ways.
Victoria Watters:And that's that's a trend I've been keeping a close eye on in terms of if you think about true alcohol alternatives, you think about other state changing substances. And the latest data is showing that in states, for example, where cannabis is legalized, you see, a pretty clear clearly tied reduction in alcohol consumption there. I think there are a lot of questions around causation versus correlation, but that's the initial data that I'm seeing. And then, anecdotally, I'm speaking with brands who say, Hey, we found we found a really surprising niche in the psychedelic community in California, And that's that's where we're selling best is is kind of among people who are interested in what's the future of of state change mentally and and is alcohol, you know, the technology as as it were? Is alcohol the technology that I wanna be using as an individual to feel differently?
Victoria Watters:So it's it's something that I think, especially with legalization, we'll see put a lot more pressure on on alcoholic brands. And for that reason, I'm personally very bullish on THC brands, for example, to be able to step in as, a state changing alternative for people who are still looking for some kind of alternative buzz.
Mike Hardenbrook:Yeah. No. That's great. Well, this interview has been actually a lot of fun. It's been educational for me.
Mike Hardenbrook:I you actually are kinda like on that side of the nonalcoholic that's, like, playful and fun and different products and different labels. So it was really good for you to come in and and impart that knowledge with us. And so I wanna thank you, first of all. And if anybody's listening and wants to reach out or or, you know, say thank you or even ask a question, is there a a good place for them to reach out and do that?
Victoria Watters:Sure. They can find us on Instagram. Our handle is the dry atlas. So shoot us a DM, and, also, you can find us at dryatlas.com. That's where you can browse all our content, subscribe to our newsletter.
Victoria Watters:And if you reply to our newsletter, I read and reply to every one that I receive.
Mike Hardenbrook:I love it. Thank you so much, Victoria.
Victoria Watters:Thanks so much for having me.
Mike Hardenbrook:This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped 100 of thousands of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 2020. And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30% in 90 days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking habits. It's not super restrictive. So if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week.
Mike Hardenbrook:If you could benefit from drinking a bit less and being more mindful of when and how much you drink, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15 day trial. You'll get access to everything that we offer, including tracking and planning tools, coaching from our experts, a vibrant community of people just like you, and the motivation and advice to stay on track with your health goals, all with no pressure to quit. That's sunnyside.co.
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