The Subtle Signs It’s Time to Reevaluate Drinking w/ Erica Mallery
Welcome to Journey to the Sunny Side, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and of course, your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunny Side, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardinbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. Today's guest is Erica Mallory, founder of ShameOver and a coach who helps women transform their relationship with alcohol.
Speaker 1:In this first part of our conversation, Erica shares the subtle signs that told her it was time to make a change, including the unforgettable moment when her toddler handed her a wine glass. You'll learn why waiting for rock bottom can actually hold you back. How small habits like her gem and jar method can build momentum and the role support systems play in making lasting change. Okay, Erica, thanks for coming on today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:You have a great story, and I can't wait to hear it. And you have some expertise that's highly relevant to our audience here. But if we wanna rewind before what you're doing now, which is shame over, what was your relationship with alcohol like day to day?
Speaker 2:Oh, well, like many, I found myself drinking a lot more during the pandemic. So, you know, in my twenties, I was I would call myself a typical drinker, you know, not the daily, but definitely binging on weekends, getting into my thirties, still kind of sticking with that. And then the pandemic hit, and, you know, what was we thought two weeks of just hanging out turned into much longer than that. So I definitely got to a point where I'm like, I don't know the last time I didn't have a drink. So it wasn't that I was, you know, getting hammered every day or anything, but it was definitely the daily habitual drinking followed by a lot of binging on weekends too since, again, not too much is going on.
Speaker 2:I was very lucky that my husband and I have a great relationship. We're happy drunk, so, you know, it wasn't causing any issues there. Everything I did was remote anyway. So that, you know, wasn't impacting my work or anything along those lines, but it just was starting to weigh on me, and it definitely I wasn't recovering how I used to recover when I was younger, and that was starting to show.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, you said something there that there was a shift. And for a lot of people, that pandemic, that that was, like, the catalyst to kinda move their drinking into something else. And did you ever think in that time, like, you know, I used to drink on the weekends. I'd made it through the week.
Speaker 1:Probably didn't think about it all that much. Now all of a sudden, it's like a daily struggle. So what was going through your mind that you were just for me, personally, I'd be like, how did that how how was it so easy for me to get through those weeks without thinking about it? Now it's totally shifted.
Speaker 2:I started noticing that I'd be thinking about what I was drinking later at, like, 10AM. So it wasn't like I was drinking then, but it would be like, oh, okay. It's a long day. What are we gonna have? Like, am I opening this bottle of wine?
Speaker 2:Or you know? So that started creeping in. But one of the first moments for me that was like, woah. It was it was a little bit into it, so we were kind of, you know, seeing people in your bubble in a sense. And my daughter saw their wine rack and literally went and got a wine glass and brought it to me.
Speaker 2:It was empty, but she just said, here you go, mama. And I was she was, I don't know, maybe 18 if that. And I'm just like, should not be what you correlate mom and wine with. So that's where that was the first moment that I'm like, alright. Something needs to change.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I can identify with that because your kids can be a great great at pointing something out. They can be a great deterrent, and they can also be a great source of motivation, inspiration. I remember, actually, I used to think to myself and visualize when I was in the middle of everything. I'd I'd envision my daughter who was three or four at that time just kinda running up to me and saying, like, daddy, daddy, like, you did it.
Speaker 1:You know? Like and that would just, like you know, and not know of course, she wouldn't know what I'm talking about. This is all in my head, but just, like, this sense of, like, yes. I can do it, and I can do it for her. Because you said you were happy happy drinkers.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. You know, there was no real rock bottom. So what was your motivating factor to really start changing?
Speaker 2:So I had a close person in my life that actually was in the ICU for some broken ribs due to drinking too much, falling, breaking some ribs, not necessarily even remembering it. And that was the moment that I was just like, okay. This is this is what happens when you not only become like that habitual drinker, but when alcohol is your source of coping. Right? And it was just that kind of like, wake up for me.
Speaker 2:You you mentioned rock bottom. I didn't want a rock bottom moment. And when you like, anyone that you've seen that has the rock bottom moment, they had about eight rock bottom moments before that one that finally made them shift. And that's where I'm like, I I don't want to wait for something like that. I don't want it to become problematic.
Speaker 2:I don't want it to be impacting my job, my career, my relationships, my children. I just knew at that moment, gonna be a lot easier to change now than keep going down this road. You know, I kind of joke about bringing health into it, but if you wait until you have three hundred pounds to lose, it's gonna be a lot harder. Where if you know, okay. I had that stubborn ten, twenty pounds, it's a lot easier to at least feel like you're getting started there.
Speaker 2:And it's kind of the same with drinking. Don't wait until it's completely you gotta get rid of it forever. Do something sooner. And even though it feels difficult, the friction's gonna be a lot less, especially long term.
Speaker 1:So something you said there that was really important that's been mentioned on the show a lot, which is you don't have to wait for a rock bottom to actually make a change. And in fact, for some people, everybody thinks of these rock bottoms as, like, the typical in the gutter lost everything. But, actually, if you go the other direction, a rock bottom for some people might just be a horrible hangover that they remember forever, and they're just like, that was it. That was enough for me. And so what's when you when you get there, did you find it more difficult, or were you just like, that's it.
Speaker 1:It's time. I'm gonna start making changes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Great question. I I think for me personally, and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this, is it's a lot of whispers over time. And when you don't listen to the whispers, they're gonna get louder and louder until it becomes that big, you know, official rock bottom in the gutter type thing. So for me, it was just the add up of all those little whispers coming at me throughout the day, throughout the week, and just realizing that all in all, like, this was not the direction I wanted to go in.
Speaker 2:And, again, it's so much easier to make a change before you're on that complete opposite side of the spectrum. So, you know, the the gray area was where I had found myself, which most people listening to this probably know what that means. But in my mind, it's easier to make that change when you are in that area before it is, you know, all day, every day drinking that you're trying to overcome all of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I found that one of the the most challenging things is, like, you know, whatever we wanna call it gray area drinkers. I in my book, I wrote them as in between drinkers, not because I wanted to be novel, but simply I just didn't know the term gray area drinker at the time, or I'm not even sure if it was, you know, in popular conversations. But, I found that that was probably the most difficult was just those little whispers because there's not one moment that you can point to. There might be, you know, peaks and valleys in there, of course.
Speaker 1:And did you so when you wanted to make a change, sometimes all of us wanna go, like, extreme. Like, that's it. That's enough. Like, I'm done with it. But then we realized that that might not be feasible in our life, and it might not even be our long term goals.
Speaker 1:So what was that conversation with yourself? What did your goal at that time look like? I'm sure it changed over time, but bring us back to then.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So early on for me, I definitely remember just the shame, the judgment, the fear around, like, everything at that moment. I my husband, again, mentioned we have a very good relationship, and I didn't want it to change our dynamic by, like, talking to him about it necessarily at that point even though I know his heart that he would not let anything change, but it was more just me. So, you know, that internal battle that I was facing. So I very quietly just started like, okay.
Speaker 2:Can I just start drinking less on my own? Whether that's, you know, taking a day off or drinking less when I'm drinking. It it was incredibly hard, and especially going online, everything said, if you're looking up ways to drink less, you're an alcoholic. Never drink again. I have done every diet on the planet, and that black or white or nothing mentality never works.
Speaker 2:Not a single time, especially long term. So I'm like, you that which with food, that's not healthy. With alcohol, that can be really, really bad. Right? So I'm just like, okay.
Speaker 2:We're just gonna have to figure something out. So I actually started I call it my piggy banking, but I got a little gem jar type thing. So just like a base with some some, like what do you call those? Like, pebbles or whatever gems that you would put in a goldfish bowl. And each day yeah.
Speaker 2:Each day that I wouldn't drink, I would put a gem in there. The first month, I only had maybe two or three. So not necessarily that motivating. Right? But it made it it switched me from being a mindless habitual drinker to it was an actual decision I was making.
Speaker 2:Because I had it front and center, I'd walk by it all the time. Nobody even knew it was there. And as I'm going through my day, I'm like, do I wanna be able to put something in there tomorrow, or do I wanna drink? Plenty of times, I still drink, but it was a decision. It wasn't just habitual 05:00.
Speaker 2:Let's
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love that. I do something sim I did something similar, which is I would take the I would have a piggy bank, but I would take the cash that I would spend on the alcohol that night and stick it in there. And then either daily, sometimes I just feel like, you know what? I could get a T shirt.
Speaker 1:Like, by the end of the month, I'd have 30 new T shirts or whatever my goal was. Or or I could just take a lump sum after that and go buy myself and treat myself so I could get some sort of rewards. I I love the visuals Yes. That you're talking about. Whether they're symbolic or actual hard cash doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1:Whatever relates to you.
Speaker 2:Well and it lets you see not only how much you're putting in, but how much it adds up over time. And if you have you know, for you, if you had a bad day, you still had those 30 shirts that
Speaker 1:you were able
Speaker 2:to buy. So that that shows how much work you had put in. So that one bad day didn't define you forever. It was that it. That was it.
Speaker 2:It was one bad day. Right? And so it helps you with just with the whole overall goal growth mindset to be able to keep going and feel motivated even when you're not motivated at all because we all know that that happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. I mean and it might sound weird to anybody listening, like, T shirt, what are you talking about? But there's, like I'm sort of, like, frugal, and so, like, I'll go out shopping with my wife or whatever, and I'll and I'll look at stuff while she's shopping, and I'll be like, oh, you know, I'll buy that for myself. I'm like, is that a nice to have or need to have?
Speaker 1:And I'm kinda like the guy that puts it back. I'm like, I don't really need that. But then it's like, it's free. I look at it like free money. Why can't I spend it?
Speaker 1:Because it would have been just already gone anyways. And so, like lately. It just was that that point was motivating for me. So I'm curious to know. Okay.
Speaker 1:So that was one of the steps that you took. What was one of the other first step? Actually, I'm gonna take this question back and ask another one because this is unique because both you and your husband sort of, like, were on this path together okay with it. You started making a change. What were some of the conversations that you guys started to have or that you did that maybe you were gonna start changing or maybe maybe you wanted to elicit him in that?
Speaker 1:How did that go?
Speaker 2:So early on, I did like I said, I I started just on my own, but I am very much community person. I need that that not only accountability, but the support. So I did bring him in into the process very early, probably a couple weeks in, and it was pretty adorable. He would, the next day, like, can I watch you put it in? And then I can put it in.
Speaker 2:We do a little dance. You know? So it was, like, get get the the dopamine and cortisol going in the morning when you're you're doing that little thing. But for me, it was very much having that direct conversation with him. Like, your drinking is not gonna impact me.
Speaker 2:I don't have a problem with your drinking. I'm not questioning your drinking at all. This is very personal, number one. But you also have to be able to tell people how they can support you. Because I feel like a lot of times the people who I work with, they're like, I don't feel supported.
Speaker 2:And I'll ask, what does support mean? I don't know. So know exactly what that means. And it takes time to figure that out, and it can change depending on what's going on, you know, what chapter you're in, all of that. But for me, I knew I did not want our relationship to change.
Speaker 2:I did not want to feel like he was babysitting me or counting my drinks or anything along those lines. So it was more, please don't ask me if I want a drink. If I want a drink, I will get it myself. Or I will tell you, hey. I am gonna have a drink tonight.
Speaker 2:Please don't ask me if you can get me another or offer to pour a bit more. If I want it, I want it to be my decision. So these little things helped me have full control and full power and ownership of over it because, you know, so much of what we we learned, especially in programs like AA and everything that are so popular, is that you are powerless. And to me, I I do not function if I'm powerless. So I need to take ownership and take full control and power over it because that's, in my mind, the only way I can make change.
Speaker 1:Yes. And, you know, I mean, if that if that function of powerlessness works for somebody, by all means. But, I mean, certainly, I didn't identify with that. I don't think most of the people listening identify with that. And I just wanna say what great awareness that you had to be able to, first of all, say, I need to tell them how you can support me, but also the way you approached it was, like, textbook example because you wanted first of all, you don't wanna ask them to do what you're doing.
Speaker 1:You just wanna do by showing, and then hopefully, you'll be able to get them on your team. But in any way, like, you're not saying, I have a problem. I don't have a problem with what you're doing. What you're doing, I it's not a reflection of what you're doing. This is for me.
Speaker 1:This is how you can support me. And even, like, you know, for the it could be like, it might not be forever, but it is what I need right now. That like, all of these were so good to hear that you did that, which is probably a big reason why you you're where you are now.
Speaker 2:I I have been a coach for years, so I had done life coaching before this. So I had a lot of that awareness and knowledge around it. But when you're in it, it is definitely so very different.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Well, it is definitely. Especially, like, it's hard to remove all the emotion and the attachment and, like, especially when things get difficult, it's easy to blame your partner or whatever. So, like, all of that, you know, of course, like, we're having a conversation, but in real life and in real practice, it can be a little bit more challenging than that.
Speaker 1:But, I mean, if anyone is wanting to sort of, like, make a change in it, is it there's a connection between you and your partner, just leading by example and letting them know that you're not asking them to do it with you, but this is what you've chosen is really the way to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because no no one is going to do it unless they're ready. Like, anyone here listening, they're not gonna make changes unless they're ready to make those changes. You know? And that's the same as anyone in our life Even if they have their thoughts on changes we should make and we have our own thoughts on that, you have to be ready to do it.
Speaker 2:So like you said, leading by example is absolutely key, but involving them in the process in a sense that is supportive without giving them the power. Because I hear people all the time like, oh, my husband knows I'm doing this, but he brought home my favorite bottle of wine, and I just just couldn't say no. And that's where it's like, okay. But you're giving them the full control of power over this situation, which, yeah, we're gonna give in at times. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:But just being realistic with yourself in a very love lovingly and kind and gracious way is a big thing too because we gotta show ourselves a lot of grace during this process.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We do. And I think, like, in those examples, you know, you don't necessarily have to be so fully reactive because we don't always make the best decisions when we're reactive. But maybe, like, the next day, you could say, you know, I know you didn't do it on purpose, but that actually made it a little more challenging
Speaker 2:It had.
Speaker 1:For me. Can, you know, can we not do that the next time? I think helps. But the best is, like, when you start succeeding and feeling great, it's almost like that scene in, when Harry met Sally and she's at dinner and she's, like, you know, having a great time and they're like, I'll have what she's having.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's what happens.
Speaker 2:No. Absolutely. And it's people definitely like, the good is gonna wear off on people. The bad's going to too. You know?
Speaker 2:So, like, that's why it's also so important who you spend your time with because that it will either lift you up or, you know, start breaking you down. But, again, realizing the only person that you have control over is yourself.
Speaker 1:100%. So, you know, you mentioned when in our email conversations back and forth beforehand that you actually used Sunnyside back when it was called cutback coach.
Speaker 2:Cutback coach. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What role did that play in your in your journey here?
Speaker 2:That was really great. I found that shortly after I had started my piggy banking. It it it's funny because when it turns to the sunnies, I'm like, what is this? This sounds like a lot a lot like an app that I used to use and then realized just the name change. But it it has come so far, and I'm so excited for you guys and what you guys are doing.
Speaker 2:For me, it was really powerful in those moments of not only planning out the week, but in the moment deciding like, okay. I said I was only gonna have two. I just ordered my third. So what does this look like? You know?
Speaker 2:And then I can be like, okay. The rest of the week is gonna have to change if I wanna meet my goal. But it just, for me, it was heightened awareness, which you can't change anything that you're unaware of. So just having that awareness is huge. And I felt like, for me, now Sunnyside did it in just a quiet way that it brought the awareness without it being, like, shameful.
Speaker 2:Because there's already so much shame around drinking. Even though it's it shouldn't be, it comes down to we feel like it's a moral thing. It's not. It's chemical. We know that, but, you know, there's so much stigma around it that the morality is always gonna come in.
Speaker 2:So making sure that, you know, I was tracking my drinks. And if I did go over, let me look at the rest of the week because I can cut out one tomorrow instead, or I can take a day off, you know, in two days instead of what I had planned. So it it really helped understanding, like, kind of the puzzle piece and that it's fluid and that there can be flexibility because some of us do not do well with the very rigid, it has to be this way. And as soon as they're like, well, I said I wasn't gonna drink today. I am.
Speaker 2:Now I'm gonna drink everything because, you know, I can't count it as a b free day boost research. I can't count it as a boost free day, so might as well drink all the things. And that's where the practice around it is so imperative for them. Yeah, cutback coach was huge for me early on just in that daily tracking because this this little thing was incredibly helpful. But getting the text message saying like, hey.
Speaker 2:Do you remember me? This is what you said you're gonna do today. Don't forget, was super helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Accountability is so huge. And count me in that group of don't tell me what to do, though. Yes. Because, I mean, literally, I've actually done some digging into my, like, some of my own behaviors and the root of that.
Speaker 1:And I actually think that it goes back to when I was a kid, and it was always like, what can I get away with? And I literally carried that into my drinking and that, like, what can I get away with, as much as possible? It it it's, like, as bizarre as that sound, but I'm like, yeah. I think that really was a big part of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, so much of it is a rebellion of sorts. And a lot of times I see because I work mainly with women, a lot of which are moms, and it's they work very rebellious throughout their life, and it's like the one area they feel almost they can rebel in the sense that, like, I get to determine this. This is my choice. I don't have control over anything else, especially, as you know, as a parent, like, with kids, we do not have control over really anything.
Speaker 2:But it's very ironic because our drinking is like, this is my control. And a lot of us here, obviously, lost that control along the way. So it's it's just crazy how it all works out.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I used to call it, like, as I was transitioning from daily drinker, I used to think like, oh, I I wanna drink because I feel like I'm going out like I was in my twenties. Like, not necessarily going out, but doing something, like, a little bit rebellious or going but now I realize it really was just tied to that sort of thing. Like, I love extreme sports. I I love adventure, and this was just one of those things that I felt like was a little bit, I don't know, naughty to do and get away with and, gave me that little hit of feeling like I was still adventurous even though having some drinks at home really isn't adventurous?
Speaker 2:Well, at the at the end of the day, the thing that they both have in common is that cortisol and dopamine spike. You know, you're gonna get that hit from whether it's extreme sports or just thinking about, you know, opening the bottle, opening the can, whatever. Like, that that hit is real, and that's what keeps us coming back.
Speaker 1:Well, and then the other thing that you said there around shame and feeling bad is is it's chemical. And that's one thing that I noticed very early on. Not early on that I had to realize as I educated myself was that the next day, I'm literally it's chemical based, most of it, because even if, like, let's say, I was daily drinking and then I was, only having drinks one night, maybe I went over a little bit, but certainly way less than I was before, and I would still feel that tremendous guilt the next day. And I had to realize, like, first of all, perspective that Yeah. I'm improved.
Speaker 1:But mostly, I had to say, this is I'm I know I'm some people are more sensitive than others. I'm highly sensitive to what alcohol does to me chemically, and I know that it puts me in a place of shame at least the next day, maybe the next. But by, like, let's say, it's a Saturday, by Tuesday, like, I'd be like, I don't even understand why I was so worked up. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. I actually I don't know if you've looked into highly sensitive people, HSP, deeply feeling, if any of those terms have come up for you. It's so Elaine Erin, I believe, is who came up with HSP, highly sensitive person in the, like, nineties. And then doctor Becky, who is unbelievable.
Speaker 2:If you have children that, you know, we all need parenting help. She's very helpful with that. She calls it deeply feeling. They're basically very similar things. But at the end of the day, about thirty percent of the population is considered highly sensitive.
Speaker 2:And this does not mean that you're, like, crying. You're taking everything so personally. Like, that is not what it is. It is just essentially our pores are bigger, and we're taking more things in. And by pores, I mean, like, our emotional pores.
Speaker 2:So if you're at an event and, like, you love the intense, you know, mountain biking or extreme sports or whatever, like, you you feel everything so much more. For me, it's like I love going to, like, sporting events and everything, but I used to drink and all of them just, you know, it was just part of it. Now when I go, I've never really liked concerts, and I know why, but it is just it's too much stimulation for me. I take it in. I'm like, I am so comfortable.
Speaker 2:When you drink, it it's a buffer between that stimulation. Right? So it's it really takes it down a couple notches. Even though you're loose, you're having shun, it's desensitizing you. So that's why when I'm starting to realize in a lot of the research that I'm doing is a lot of us who are drinking that, you know, like, that is not the super problematic, you know, all day, everyday thing.
Speaker 2:But a lot of times, it's due to our high sensitivity. So especially if you drink as your reward for getting through the end of the day, that can be a huge tell because it's just you've taken everything in so much, and all of a sudden, this is your moment for you. This is the first break that you've had all day. This is the first breath you've taken for yourself, and it is like your way to essentially shut everything off. So if that's what you're using alcohol to do is to quiet the noise, to shut things off, A lot of people with ADHD, for example, really feel this hard.
Speaker 2:It's the one thing that shuts their brain off for that little bit of time.
Speaker 1:What's the name of it again? Highly h s
Speaker 2:You can look up HSP or highly sensitive person.
Speaker 1:I mean, put me in that bracket because literally everything you said. First of all, like sporting events, if I go to them now, I can't even carry a conversation with the person next week because it's just overload. And then my drinking point was I was an entrepreneur. I could never shut it off. The only way there was no quitting time.
Speaker 1:There's no punch out or, like, nobody working saying, I can't be like, nobody's working right now, so I might as well not be working because it was, like, me running the business. So the only way to shut that down was to open a bottle of wine too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And especially, I had two young kids. So, like, birthday parties, it is complete health for me. I'm like, I would literally be anywhere else but here.
Speaker 2:But, like, all this screaming and the lights and it's just so much going on. So luckily, my husband, not sensitive at all when it comes to this, he has taken over a lot of that because I'm like, I just can't. So it's I have a quiz on my website that kind of tells you if you might be drinking out of a sensitive nature or not. So I can definitely get you that information if you wanna check it out.
Speaker 1:No. That's great. I love it. I'm learning stuff. So now you work with with women specifically.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I do one on ones with men, but my groom coaching is typically just women. Then I have a course as well that really walks through people essentially like a day by day, just five minutes a day, to build that not only awareness, but some habits in there for understanding your relationship around alcohol.
Speaker 1:That's it for part one. Thanks for listening to today's conversation with Erica. In part two, she shares her five pillars for creating lasting change and how you can put them into practice in your own life. You won't want to miss it. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped hundreds of thousands of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 2020.
Speaker 1:And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30% in ninety days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking It's not super restrictive, so if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week. If you could benefit from drinking a bit less and being more mindful of when and how much you drink, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. You'll get access to everything that we offer, including tracking and planning tools, coaching from our experts, a vibrant community of people just like you, and the motivation and advice to stay on track with your health goals, all with no pressure to quit. That's sunnyside dot co.
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