Journey to the Sunnyside

Mike: 00:00

Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and, of course, inspire your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15 day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardenbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. In this episode, I'm joined with doctor Loretta Bruning.

Mike: 00:35

Who talk about the power of something called the mammal brain, and we'll explore how dopamine, serotonin, endorphins, and oxytocin can guide our emotions and behaviors. We'll also talk about the myth of effortless happiness and the vital role of understanding our biology in order to cultivate joy. So get ready to hear Loretta's novel concepts in this episode.

Mike: 01:06

Okay. Today, I'm here with Loretta Bruning, and I'm really excited to do this podcast because we actually had a chance to speak together on her podcast, and she's got a lot of insights about human behavior and more specifically for our audience, habit change. So I wanted to talk a little bit about your ideas, Loretta, and writings around this thing called the mammal brain or that mammal mind that you talk about. Can you give us a little bit of understanding about what this is, you know, and why you kinda went in this direction with your research?

Loretta: 01:39

Sure. So our motions are chemicals that are controlled by this deep inner part of the brain called the limbic brain. And this limbic brain is almost the same as the brain of all other mammals. It includes things people have heard about like the amygdala and the hypothalamus and stuff like that. But the individual parts are not what matters.

Loretta: 02:02

What matters is that it's separate from the big pink fluffy thing that people see in images of the brain, which is what causes our conscious thoughts and our verbalization. So they're like having 2 different people inside the same head. And the connections between them are not hardwired. So they're built if you build them or else you're going in 2 separate directions, and they're just not connected. So our animal brain is motivated to promote its own survival.

Loretta: 02:34

And that's what stimulates our happy chemicals, and that's what stimulates our threat chemicals. And when we understand that, then everything makes sense. And what motivated me to pursue this is everything did not make sense when I was just a believer in academic psychology. It was always sort of trying to promote this virtuous view of, like, this higher human that didn't really explain how people really were. And it was always conveniently blamed on society when the model didn't work.

Loretta: 03:05

But after you're a parent and a teacher, then you you see raw humans, I guess, and and you want a deeper explanation.

Mike: 03:15

Yeah. That makes sense. Was there a time besides your professional career, was there a time in your personal life where you where you related to something just doesn't line up and, you know, that kinda led you down this direction for your research that then developed into, I would say a book, but it's many books that you've written on the subject.

Loretta: 03:37

Sure. Well, it's hard to think of one point because I I grew up in a very unhappy home. So I was always surrounded by this theme song of woe, you could say. And occasionally, it was pointed at me. So, like, unhappiness was blamed on me.

Loretta: 03:58

So on some level, I was very driven to figure out what is the real cause of all this happiness? Because I don't think I'm really the the cause.

Mike: 04:06

Okay.

Loretta: 04:07

And so that's how I first turned academic psychology. And then as I as I mentioned, like, over the years of raising children and having thousands of students as a college professor that I saw that the academic model of human motivation just didn't ring true. Interestingly, my first two classes in my freshman year of college, I clearly remember all these monkey studies. We were in a giant auditorium and there was a giant screen decades before PowerPoint was invented. But giant screen with these giant monkey images.

Loretta: 04:46

And so I guess it was always in the back of my head to look to the animal brain for the deeper explanations. And when I came along a mention of the dopamine of monkeys and the serotonin of monkeys, I was stunned. Because to me, this was like the Rosetta Stone because animals can't override their impulses with fancy philosophy the way humans do. And so that they'd be very interested to know how does dopamine and serotonin and endorphin work in animals.

Mike: 05:20

Yeah. I'm really interested in that. Can you talk a little bit more in-depth around the the serotonin, dopamine, endorphins, and, oxy, Tocin. Oxytocin. Sorry.

Mike: 05:34

And momentary lapse there. Can you talk

Mike: 05:37

a little bit about, like,

Loretta: 05:38

the research on that? Everyone does because there's another kind of oxy, which is in a different direction. Yeah. So it's just a word that comes from the chemical structure, but it sounds so similar. Yeah.

Loretta: 05:53

So, so each of these chemicals creates a different good feeling and has a different job in nature. And that's why we want all of them. And that's why we have these 4 different motivations to meet survival needs. So dopamine is the most basic which is simply the pleasure of meeting a need. And it's triggered in advance.

Loretta: 06:18

Once you meet a need in a certain way, then neurons connect and then your brain starts releasing the dopamine in advance when you just think about meeting that need in that way. Now what do I need by a need? Well, in the state of nature, it was really hard to find food and water and firewood. So humans spent most of their energy on that quest. But in the modern world, because our physical needs are met so easily, we have all this unused energy to invest in this strive to meet social needs.

Loretta: 06:52

And that's why we really make too big of a deal out of them. And there are 2 different social needs. So oxytocin is the urge for social support. But in a raw animal sense it's the urge to get protection from others, which is what animals seek when they push their way into the middle of a herd. And serotonin is the urge to have power in that herd.

Loretta: 07:20

Because animals compete heavily over food and mating opportunity. And an animal's relative strength determines, to a large extent the food and meaning opportunity that they get. So our brain rewards us with serotonin when we perceive our relative strength. If you think, I'm the man, I got it going on, then you get a little spurt of serotonin. And who doesn't love that?

Loretta: 07:46

But it's gone in a short time because that's how it's meant to work and that's why we're always looking for more. And finally, endorphin is the body's natural opioid. And it's only triggered by real physical pain. So in the animal world, if you are like attacked and your flesh is ripped open, but you could still run for your life because endorphin masks pain for about 15 minutes so you can survive. And that's why we are not meant to inflict pain on ourselves to trigger endorphin.

Loretta: 08:20

We're only meant to have it for emergencies, and the other chemicals are there that, are are designed to motivate that quest.

Mike: 08:29

Yeah. I I find this really interesting, especially because, you know, I do a lot of research around, specifically, like, habits and related a lot of habits are formed related to those, neurotransmitters and chemicals and, hormones. What, how do you think that the per the narrative in society right now sort of fails that scientific or, like, historic background around, like, you know, as those relate what you just talked about and to basically the sense of being happy or unhappy?

Loretta: 09:05

Well, the popular narrative is based on Rousseau, which suggested that happiness is effortless in the state of nature. And your happy chemicals just run all the time. And your needs are met with very little effort. And this is what people have come to believe. And so if they're not effortlessly happy all the time, which no one is, then we're persuaded that it must be a disorder and that treatment can relieve it.

Loretta: 09:32

But the fact is that if you were on a tropical island, you would worry about where your next meal was coming from and whether your water would run out and whether the guy next door had a sharper arrow on his bow and would, kill bigger animals that would get a more mating opportunity.

Mike: 09:52

So do you think that it's, like, sort of the self help and, more specifically, I guess, psychology approach is is wrong as far as, like, you know, everything is sort of modeled around getting yourself happy. Is it do you see it as being it needs a different approach as in more of an understanding about what's going on?

Loretta: 10:17

Oh, well, no. I think it's inevitable that we're going to seek happy chemicals. That's what they're designed to motivate. Like, oh, I wanna do something because it sparks my dopamine. That's what got our ancestors to keep going when they were exhausted and starving.

Loretta: 10:34

So it's always gonna be that way. So realism is what we benefit from. So it's not realistic to expect to be on this high all the time. It's not realistic to think that other people are getting that high all the time, that they're getting it effortlessly, that you've been deprived of it. And that if you only follow this fast easy solution or that fast easy solution that you're gonna get that too.

Mike: 11:01

Yeah. I love that. And, you know, I'm interested since we're on the topic of, like, things like dopamine and, and those others that we mentioned. You know, those are interesting because those are really instrumental in forming habits as well. Because when you're forming a habit, your brain is looking for very efficient ways to feel a certain way.

Mike: 11:20

So if your brain recognizes a certain behavior as being beneficial, it's not really thinking, like, in this long term benefit. Yeah. And that's why, especially, like, for for listeners right now because they're changing their habits around alcohol, and alcohol is a highly efficient, perceived by the brain because it's almost a 100% for to the outcome, you know, from wanting to feel a certain way and on the short term drinking, you're either gonna feel relieve pain or add pleasure. Have you given much thought to, like, that actual scenario as far as, like, habit change and

Loretta: 11:57

Oh, yeah. Yeah? Yes. So so we all run on habit, and it's not just the obvious visible behavior habits, but the thought habits that are very powerful. And these deep neural pathways are built when we're children, thanks to a substance called myelin, which is like the paving on our neural pathways.

Loretta: 12:17

So there's nothing shameful about being wired in youth. We are all wired in youth. And that's why it's so important to sort of dig like an archaeologist and look for those early pathways that we built so we can understand that we are creating these behaviors and thoughts ourselves and then we can change them by building new neural pathways. And it's hard to build new neural pathways in adulthood. But when you know that that's the solution, then you just do the work rather than expecting a rescue to come from somewhere else.

Loretta: 12:51

Now the neural pathways that we build when we're young are unique to our individual experience. So everyone has pain and frustration and disappointment when they're young. And any minute that you relieve pain or disappointment, anytime a good feeling replaces a bad feeling, your brain says, that's it. That's the answer. So each of us has that's the answer wired into us.

Loretta: 13:20

You know? So so it's just whatever that person but the bottom line is, it's not just what's in the alcohol or what's what's in the gambling or what's in the shopping spree. It's the relief from the bad feeling of the moment when you first did it. And then your brain expects anything that feels bad, that's the solution.

Mike: 13:45

Yeah. For sure. I mean, one of the things that I thought about is why is it so difficult when it comes to alcohol to break that? And, you know, I said the thing about its efficiency because if you're replacing it with, let's say, you're gonna replace that time that you drink with something, a mindfulness practice like meditation. You know, meditation, the likelihood to to the actual outcome might be good at, like, 8 let's say, 80% of the time you feel better, right, versus the 100% with the alcohol.

Mike: 14:16

And we're talking the mind is thinking in short term, processes. But, you know, I think there is something that I've I've read that you talked about that is specific to mindful drinking, and and that is, like, changing habits can be challenging. But not only challenging, they can maybe not feel so good to start that habit. Do you have some thoughts around that, why that is?

Loretta: 14:41

Sure. When you're feeling bad, your brain perceives it as a real survival threat due to this chemical called cortisol. And because our cortisol pathways are built when we're young and children do not have a lot of power to meet their own survival needs, so these threatened feelings are real. So you make the bad feeling go away with whatever habit you have. And then the minute you let go of the habit, you go back to feeling like you're having this threat with no way to make it go away.

Loretta: 15:11

And I learned this from a quit smoking, hypnotherapist. And he, he gave me this very funny example that I think is very useful. He said, imagine you're a 14 year old kid at a party and you wanna talk to a special someone but you're nervous. And so you have a cigarette and then you talk to that person and they like you and you make a date. And now your brain connects the pleasure of meeting your urgent social survival need with a cigarette.

Loretta: 15:46

So now if you give up the cigarette, you're back to being this scared 14 year old at a party with no way to meet your survival needs.

Mike: 15:54

Mhmm. That's interesting. Thinking through because you you talk a lot about, like, our biology and politics, and I really wanna get into that because those those are your more new and novel ideas that you have. But going down the habits, I know you've given a lot of thought to this. Like, are there some ways to replace bad habits with good ones based on your research that you really, like, lean into?

Loretta: 16:20

Yes. So I think in my opinion that a good habit needs to feel good. Because that's what your inner man was looking for is to feel good. So to me this whole virtue thing doesn't work. So I live in Northern California where people are very focused on this virtue of I'm not going to eat this and I'm not going to do this and I'm going to exercise this.

Loretta: 16:44

And then, if they're still unhappy, then they eliminate more foods and exercise harder. And if they're still unhappy, they eliminate more foods and exercise even harder. So and they're all superior about all the possible pleasures in the universe that they think they're, like, above that. So they're not giving their inner mammal any way to feel good. Now, as I mentioned, mammals are very competitive.

Loretta: 17:12

And if you live in a culture where competitiveness is so taboo that you say other people are competitive, but I'm not. I have no interest at all in being in the one up position, then you're really still playing the game because this moral superiority is your way of being in the one up position. But because you can't admit it, you can't help your inner mammal get what it needs to feel good. So your inner mammal wants dopamine. It wants to seek a goal and get it and take action and get closer to something seeking.

Loretta: 17:51

It wants for oxytocin. It wants the protection of others even though you don't want to admit that you want the protection of others. And it wants to feel strong. It wants to feel like it it, it can assert with success. And that's what stimulates our chemicals.

Loretta: 18:09

So we're all looking for healthy ways to trigger those chemicals because, of course, it's easy to think of unhealthy chemicals. But just denying these animal impulses, I think, doesn't work.

Mike: 18:21

Yeah. What do you think I'm actually this sparks an eye, a thought in my mind. So I had a guest here that he had problems with alcohol in the past. He completely gave it up. So we're talking on the extreme side of things.

Mike: 18:35

And then he went to the extreme side of running. So he ended up not only running ultra marathons, but he ran across the he was the 1st man to ever run across the Sahara, which was, like, 4000 miles. And now he's actually running from the lowest point on Earth, which is the Dead Sea all the way up to the highest point of Earth, in the Himalayas.

Loretta: 18:58

This is exactly what I was saying.

Mike: 19:00

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Mike: 19:03

Yeah. It's

Loretta: 19:04

Now the way I explain my book is that exercise, including extreme exercise, it does trigger dopamine in the sense that you pursue a goal. It does trigger serotonin in the sense that it gives you a way to achieve the one up position. And it does trigger oxytocin if it gives you a herd. But if you don't understand these other chemicals, you think you're triggering the good feeling through pain which is what this exercise triggering pain and endorphin is the cult that has developed. And that's why I think it's so important for people to accept the reality of the other animal impulses rather than just seek, happiness through pain.

Loretta: 19:50

To me, it's really unhealthy. And I I say this because I played tennis for decades with this group of older women who would take aspirin before they started the game. And I met I met a guy who go to the gym, and he would take pain relievers before he started Yeah. The gym. It's insane.

Mike: 20:11

Yeah. I mean, I can relate in the past when I used to overindulge the next day. What I norm my normal routine was I'd just get up and go for these insanely long runs to just kind of run it out and a little bit, you know, punish myself. But also by the end, I was probably getting endorphins and dopamine to feel better. So I can certainly relate to, you know, the over overdoing the exercise and maybe a little bit of punish self punishment with a reward tied to the end, I guess it still has that.

Mike: 20:45

But it's really interesting also with regard to dopamine and serotonin because with the with alcohol, especially and I'm not here to, you know, talk like we're demonizing it. But it's important, I think, for people to understand that those that can raise dopamine levels and raise can raise serotonin levels into a lesser extent the others that we've talked about. But over time, it can then end up blocking those. Have you seen have you done any research into that as far as, like, how that affects, you know, our everyday and how yeah. I think that's the question.

Loretta: 21:24

Sure. So our brain runs on expectations. If you expect something to be rewarding, then you release the chemical in advance. So the simple example is when a person runs a marathon, they are training painfully because when they train the dopamine of expecting this fabulous finish is released in advance because you're anticipating this. So what you anticipate is always what matters.

Loretta: 21:55

But once you run the marathon and finish, dopamine stops. So, like, if you order a pizza, oh, it's gonna taste so good. And that great feeling of anticipation is what motivates you to call for the for the pizza. And you're all excited while you're waiting for it. You're all excited when you take the first bite.

Loretta: 22:16

But then the good feeling is gone. So my dopamine is designed to motivate me to take action to get whatever the thing is. So if you think about it naturally, if I were a hunter gatherer and it was cold and wet and I had to go out and look for firewood, I don't wanna go out in the cold to look for firewood, but I anticipate how warm I will feel when I take that action to meet my needs. So that's a calculation we're always making based on however we were wired when we were young. So, if we have one dopamine strategy, then we're not putting any time or effort or energy into other dopamine strategies.

Loretta: 23:02

So the bottom line, is to free up your mind from this one quest and then find a new quest. And to me, it's very important to find a new quest.

Mike: 23:18

That reminds me of the saying, if something is getting done, something else isn't getting done. So that makes sense. And even if it's not efficient and it it was at one time and doesn't and you keep doing it, then you're not leaving yourself open to those possibilities change. So that makes perfect sense. I'm curious.

Mike: 23:37

And, obviously, you wouldn't be using the Sunnyside app, but we happen to be on the Sunnyside podcast. So I'm curious since you are an expert on human behavior and expert on habit change. If you had any, ideas or feedback on why, because it does work very well for a lot of people why you think that that might work.

Loretta: 23:58

Sure. Well, so the bottom line is your brain only releases a dopamine if you actually expect to reach the goal. Like, if you actually expect to find firewood, otherwise, it wouldn't release the dopamine. So, people often make very big goals and then they don't expect to reach them. So they lose the dopamine.

Loretta: 24:19

So we really benefit from small goals. So I think something this this, app is a good way of having, like, small goals and then you can succeed. And it's the small successes that make you feel good that keep you going. So that's part of it. And the other thing is it takes a lot of repetition to build new neural pathways in adulthood.

Loretta: 24:44

And so the reinforcement that you get from the app gives you, like, the frequent repetition that you need. So but again, I think there's one more missing piece which is, what the the smoking coach told me. And I didn't smoke. I I just met him in this class. He said, if you constantly tell yourself don't smoke, don't smoke, don't smoke, then your mammal brain is constantly reminded of smoking.

Loretta: 25:11

So really, you need to give it something else to think about. So if whenever I feel bad, I decide that I'm gonna have a carrot, then at least I give my inner mammal something else to focus on. So it's finding new pleasures in life, New healthy pleasures.

Mike: 25:29

Yes. I love that. And I've I've written about that in my book and that it's also about just reframing it. This is basically what you said. It's like reframing it also, not what you're giving up or, like, that you don't wanna do, but framing it in what you get instead.

Mike: 25:44

Like, for example, I don't instead of saying I don't wanna drink tonight, you would say, I get to wake up tomorrow really early. I'm gonna make healthy choices. I'm gonna feel great instead of saying, oh, I can't do this thing. And then also, like you said, your brain doesn't really hear that, I don't. It just hears the I am going to drink tonight kind of thing.

Mike: 26:08

So I think that that's really great.

Loretta: 26:11

And also, we could think we have a limited amount of energy. If I spend all my energy tonight, I'm not going to have any left tomorrow. If I use up all my dopamine tonight on this thing, then tomorrow I'm gonna wake up with a deficit of dopamine and I'm gonna feel terrible. So, I I I'm always careful about where I spend my energy because it really takes a lot of energy to feel good. And if you spend it all in one place, then you're gonna love be left feeling bad.

Mike: 26:42

Yeah. And couple that with decision fatigue, a full day, you know, you make thousands of decisions. You have internal dialogue and thoughts that go on all day. And usually, the time that's hardest to resist is in the evening, which it's the strongest to partake because that's when people are no longer working. And, you know, they call it the witching hour for many reasons, and I think that's part of it.

Mike: 27:04

And there's even, like, a physic physiology to it on decision making that and you might be able to talk more on this than I am. This is more on my independent research that glucose diminishes on every decision that you make. And so, physically, we're actually disposition to make poor choices in the evening based on that as well.

Loretta: 27:25

It's absolutely true, and that's why it's so important to have other pleasures at night. For example, watching something uplifting rather than watching the news. Because again, people get themselves into this negative state. Either they they watch the news or they watch some movie full of violence and slow death of terminal cancer or something. That no.

Loretta: 27:50

We need to save uplifting activities for our low energy hours.

Mike: 27:56

Yeah. That's that's good advice. That's something that I ended up doing a long time ago is that if I'm gonna watch something in the evening, it's got I very carefully choose what I'm gonna watch. And to be honest, I end up watching kind of the same sitcoms that uplift me. And sometimes and many times the same episodes that I've seen many times, so it's not overly engaging in the evening.

Mike: 28:16

Yeah. I've already seen it, but it's something to, you know, put on to keep myself a little bit entertained. So I I think that that's really good advice. But what I really wanna do also here is shift a little bit to talk about your new book because I think this is a really new way of thinking about things. And I think the title alone leaves some question marks probably strategically placed there.

Mike: 28:41

But the title of the book is Why You Are Unhappy Biology excuse me. I'm gonna do that again. Why you're unhappy? Biology versus politics. Can you tell

Loretta: 28:51

us a little bit about this book and the politics angle? And, actually, I'm just gonna let you run and you tell us about all the ideas. Sure. So why you're unhappy? The simple reason we're unhappy because our brain produces unhappiness very easily.

Loretta: 29:09

And we've given this false we're given this false idea that happiness is the natural default state. So it persuades everyone that something is wrong with them when in fact, unhappiness is extremely common because our stress chemical, Cortisol, is designed to turn on every time you're disappointed. So for example, if you go out to look for firewood and you don't find any, bad chemical feeling turns on to that tells you, don't waste any more effort in this direction or else you're gonna freeze to death. You better make a new decision. So whenever we have expectations that are disappointed, bad feeling turns on that's absolutely natural.

Loretta: 29:50

That's how the brain works. So we're all challenged to manage this brain. And to be told that this is a disease is is to me a disorder. It's just and to expect other people to fix it is crazy to me. So what is that's the biology.

Loretta: 30:08

The politics, defining politics as whatever is popular. Because if you are, I selling a psychological theory. If it's popular, you're gonna sell more of it. So it's popular to tell people that their unhappiness is not their fault and they can get somebody else to fix it. So we are having a lot of theories sold to us that make the person selling the theory popular.

Loretta: 30:40

And that's too bad, but that's always gonna be that way. So we can't wait for them to change. We have to find our own power, which we can, to say, I've inherited this brain that naturally creates unhappiness. This is a perfectly normal thing, but I have the power to redirect my thoughts in a happier direction, and I have to do it over and over and over. And humans have always had to do that since the beginning of time.

Mike: 31:09

Yeah. Talk about the is it Rousseau theory that you talked about? Let's go into that a little bit more just to understand, your thoughts and, like, observations.

Loretta: 31:20

Yeah. So Rousseau is the person, like, 250 years ago, that first popularized the idea that nature is easy and effortless and fun and like the fish practically jump into your lap. And so you just spend all day making luck. And the way this came up, this this belief got entrenched is that at the time, European ships entered Tahitian waters for the first time. And Tahitian girls got in their canoes and rode out to greet the sailors naked.

Loretta: 31:57

Did I say that? Yeah. And so this was very surprising event and news spread around the world like wildfire and people's look for an explanation. How could this happen? And Rousseau said, oh, this is natural.

Loretta: 32:12

This is what life was like all the time until civilization ruined things. And that theory was so popular that it got entrenched and it became the foundation of our belief system today, which is that nature is effortlessly happy and society is the cause of all of our unhappiness. And today we've added this science layer, which says that science proves that animals are happy and children are happy and hunter gatherers are happy. And they throw all these supposed studies at you so you don't dare question it because then you're ridiculed as anti science. But in fact, we can all see plenty of evidence that animals have lots of conflict and children have lots of conflict and hunter gatherers have lots of conflict.

Loretta: 33:01

And that's what the brain produces, but we don't wanna see the truth because now this theory has gotten so much power.

Mike: 33:11

Yeah. That's such an interesting concept. I heard you talk on another, I think, actually, I was listening to your book and you said something around, you know, you could be in this tropical rainforest that's beautiful. And I might be, not getting this right. But, basically, you could be in this beautiful setting and still you would have these feelings of ups and downs.

Mike: 33:32

And that really resonated with me because there's been times in my in my past where I've been, you know, on a beach in Spain, in a villa, all my finances were covered, like, seemingly perfect. Right? And yet, it takes me back to this saying that I first read. I don't know if it came from that, but it's don't sweat the small stuff by Jack Canfield. And he said, wherever you go, there you are.

Mike: 33:57

And that that always made me think about that. And so I think what you're saying here really makes a lot of sense to me. And also, at the same time, made me feel like maybe there was something wrong with me thinking in this place that why should I be feeling wrong?

Loretta: 34:16

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I call it diseaseification.

Loretta: 34:21

You know, that our natural angst about our mortality has become diseaseified because basically, we know that we're gonna die, which animals do not. And so as soon as we have all all of our survival needs met, we look out further for the next possible threat and the next possible threat. And because we're aware of our mortality, when you have nothing to do, then just new new threats enter your awareness. So that's why we need a focus. We need a project in order to have a sense that we are moving towards something rather than moving toward annihilation.

Mike: 35:06

That's really well put. You know, I was my next question was gonna be, if somebody asked you, and I think you sorta answered this, but I'll let you elaborate if you feel like you can, is that if somebody were to ask you, you know, what are, like, some bullet points that would give me, ways to build happy skills now, What advice would you give them?

Loretta: 35:27

Sure. So first, again, small steps that you repeat, so that they gradually feel more natural. And in the beginning, they may not feel like the right thing. But what would stimulate your dopamine is what I say is a project. You need a project.

Loretta: 35:48

If you don't, it doesn't have to be some change the world project because often that's like, you're not gonna feel like you're getting closer to the mountain top. So then you're gonna not stimulate your dopamine. So I even say, a long term project, a short term project and a medium term project. So that when one seems blocked you could focus on another. Now to stimulate your oxytocin, so we hear a lot about, group bonding.

Loretta: 36:20

But if it were easy and fun, then they wouldn't be pressuring us to do it all the time. So it has very painful elements and that's what my book focuses on. The painful side of each of the happy chemicals. So we understand why it's hard. But the bottom line is that we long for protection because we're born vulnerable and helpless and need protection.

Loretta: 36:45

And life is about losing the protection that you may have had when you were young. And so then we have to find new ways of feeling protected. So if you have to go to the pub every night to feel protected by this group or if you have to open a new wine bottle to feel protected, then then there you are. But you have to admit to yourself, I want that feeling of protection like all mammals do. What are some other ways we can get it?

Loretta: 37:15

And my books give of wide variety of ways that, are, they're all challenging because there's no simple answer. Because even animals get annoyed when they're in a herd because all the grass has been peed on by the other animals. And they'd rather run off to greener pasture, but then they get eaten by a predator. So it's really the risk of predators that keeps us in our groups. And and that's it's a hard choice.

Loretta: 37:49

And finally, serotonin. Your inner mammal wants to be in the one up position but it's taboo to admit it. So you end up being resentful when other people are in the one up position. So you really need to notice this thought loop going on and how deeply it got wired in so that you can know that nobody's doing this to you. You're doing this to yourself because that's what the mammal brain does.

Loretta: 38:15

And this is the subject of my book called status games, why we play and how to stop. But all all of them are discussed in my new book, why you're unhappy.

Mike: 38:26

That's so helpful, and I love it. You know, as you were saying, it kinda drew some parallels. And I'm not just here to talk about, you know, the SunnySide app, but it was interesting because as you said, the you have to have short term, medium, and long term goals. And I think a lot of people are stopped by, like, this idea of, I'm gonna change things my habits forever. Or even shorter term, things like dry January is very difficult for people to envision themselves finishing it.

Mike: 38:53

Whereas, you know, people that maybe won't tackle all those on and feel the opposite of happy, they feel diminished. They feel, like, you know, sad or unhappy or even, like, a lot of people will hope start out in January and just say, well, I messed that up. Try it in 2024, you know. Whereas the the 2025. Yeah.

Mike: 39:14

Or the I'll see you next year. Whereas this kinda, like, lets you set a weak goals and then, like, dry January was January. So if you messed up, it's not the end. You recognize it. You move on.

Mike: 39:27

You keep going. It's still a medium sized goal, and then the long term goal is is chunked down into small ones. And then also to your point around community, having having that accountability, but not even accountability so much as support or somebody that you can talk to or aligns with that or can support what you're doing. I think there's a lot of parallels that I'm hearing there, which is, enforcing in a way to hear that. And even though the context isn't, like, apples to apples, but I think a lot of the behaviors really are.

Mike: 40:02

And, I I'm really excited. So as far as your book goes though, I wanna ask, is it is it out and released? And where can people get that?

Loretta: 40:12

Sure. It's, it's out. It's on Amazon, and my website has complete information. And it's in all formats. But, my website talks about all of my books, my podcast, my videos.

Loretta: 40:28

And I have a free 5 day happy chemical jump start, where you can get one email a day on each chemical for 5 days. It gives you a complete introduction for free. And you just put in your email and it puts you on my mailing list.

Mike: 40:44

I love it. Because your information is not only is it really insightful, it's novel. It's really a different take to, a lot of things that people are trying to define or have theories around, and I really I love your work. I think it's great. Anyone listening should definitely go and check it out.

Mike: 41:02

But before we close, I wanna ask you looking forward, like, are there you've just finished this book and I know that you've got a mind that never stops. So what areas of research are you most excited about and or maybe exploring further right now?

Loretta: 41:18

Sure. Well, I'm not doing original research in the sense that I'm I'm I'm explaining, research that was done in the eighties. I'm helping people integrate, connect the dots, and see inside the reality of the this old research effectively. So I'm always looking for new ways to communicate it. So I tried this and I tried this and I tried this.

Loretta: 41:46

One thing I haven't tried yet is to make it a novel. So that's what I'm dreaming of is to make it a novel.

Mike: 41:54

That would be entertaining. So informational novel, is that what you mean?

Loretta: 41:59

Yeah. When I was when I told you about these, like, first psychology classes that I had when I was in college. And one of the things that we were assigned was this book called Walden 2. I have it right here actually. Walden 2 was a novel written by BF Skinner where he sort of novelized this, you know, ideal world that he imagined.

Loretta: 42:21

I'm not making it an ideal world. But, I'm I'd I'm making a novel that helps people accept the reality of the animal brain rather than just having this warm and fuzzy idealized view of animals and and of hunter gatherers and and of the brain.

Mike: 42:43

Yeah. I mean, as far as, like, connecting the dots and the old research, it really takes somebody to curate that information in a way that somebody can actually take the information and put it into action in their lives. And they might even know 90% of the information presented, but it but it's that 10% that actually ends up being beneficial and not just information that's received. So, I mean, I think your work is just incredible. And if somebody wanted to get in contact with you or read more, I know that they have your website, and we'll link everything up here.

Mike: 43:18

Is there a best place they should go? Are you on social media, or is there any place that you'd like to direct anybody to?

Loretta: 43:25

Sure. Well, my website has all of the social media icons at the top. So it's just whichever format a person prefers. I even have animations. If you want to share this person with someone in your life who has a a 2 minute attention span or a 5 minute attention span.

Loretta: 43:44

I have every possible version. And I have a course, an online course, if you want like a, couple of months long, step by step program to help you build new neural pathways. And, the the the course has 3 modules and the 3rd module is called tough topics. And the tough topics are addiction, love, money, parenting, and politics.

Mike: 44:13

I wanted to ask you, and this is probably I've said this before. Ask myself one question, what would it be?

Loretta: 44:24

Ask myself one question, what would it be? Well, I my personal challenge is I have tight muscles. So I'm I'm always getting these treatments and that they they say, how can you let go of that muscle? So that's what I'm always asking myself. How can I let go of that muscle?

Loretta: 44:47

But and, you know, I I don't know. When I let go of one place, then I feel tension somewhere else. So then I'm like, should I just not think about it? Am I making it worse by so so everybody has their own little challenges. Yeah.

Loretta: 45:00

Hey. I have a question for you. I'd I'd be, interested in your opinion, and I think it's a fascinating topic. So we all make we all look for community as you said, and we all make assumptions about what other people are drinking. What of who?

Loretta: 45:16

What other people are thinking. And, we've both spoken to Janet Goran at tribe sober, And she mentions this this problem that alcoholics have well, maybe you don't use the word term alcoholics, whatever. That if you decline a drink that she says well, first people want to only socialize with alcoholics because they think other people are judging them. So that very much limits their prospects. But then, they're in this thing where they say, well, then when I'm with people who are drinkers, I have to drink because if I don't drink, they're gonna hassle me.

Loretta: 45:57

And they're gonna say, what's wrong with you? Why aren't you drinking? So this has never happened to me once in my whole life. Like, my mind doesn't go there. Like, if I'm in public, I couldn't care less what a person thinks about whether I'm drinking or whether I'm not drinking.

Loretta: 46:14

So, like, I'm not projecting. You it's sort of like if do do they think I'm fat? Do they think I'm richer? You know, my mother was always worried that people thought we were poor. You know?

Loretta: 46:26

So it's like whatever we're projecting onto how other people are judging us. You know? Mhmm. So it just seems like if people could be more aware of that, then they would feel their own power to decide about each drink instead of having all of these complications about what other people will think about what I do or don't do.

Mike: 46:50

Yeah. And I think that it also gets built up in your mind. So if you decline it, it might be a big deal in your mind that you declined it, but that person probably moved on to the next thing. You know, people are consumed with themselves and they don't care. And I I heard this in a recent interview that I did with somebody where they said they socialized the whole event and they moved around from group to group and they and she said, you know, by the end, no one even noticed that I only had the one glass of wine the whole night.

Mike: 47:19

And I thought, well, I don't think anybody would have noticed, you know, one way or the other because that was built up in her own mind that people were taking note as to how much they were drinking. And, fortunately, like, to the point that you said around you haven't experienced it. I definitely have, and I know others have about the social pressure to drink, and I think it's twofold. You know, number 1, there's that cognitive dissonance as far as, like, the other person wanting to get you to drink because they want you they wanna feel less bad about themselves potentially, or they want you to be part of their tribe. And when you don't, you're not part of their tribe.

Mike: 47:58

So there's, like, multitude of reasons why people are trying to pressure people into drink. It's either intrinsic or it's like you're one of us, I think, at its core. But also on the other side, the the lucky thing is is that I think socially, we're becoming a culture that is starting to recognize the damages that alcohol can do and that people saying, no thanks, I'm taking a break or not tonight, comes with less challenge these days because the tribe is, I guess, is getting broken up a little bit. Just depends, I think, if it's your college drinking buddies that you still have always hung out with, there's probably less wiggle room in that regard. But I think, you you know, at a holiday party or something like that where you have a variation, it's getting easier these days.

Loretta: 48:47

Good. Good. And and not to say that it's different from alcohol versus other group bonding rituals. I mean, it's it's the same whatever the bonding ritual is.

Mike: 48:57

Yeah. Well, this has been incredible. I had a lot of fun because I I just like speaking with you and I like your ideas and you're just a nice person to hang out with. So I wanted to thank you so much for coming on today.

Loretta: 49:10

Sure. Thank you so much. It was fascinating.

Mike: 49:14

Thank you,

Loretta: 49:14

Laura. Hope you reach many people.

Mike: 49:19

This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped 100 of thousands of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 20 20. And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30% in 90 days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking habits. It's not super restrictive. So if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week.

Mike: 49:51

If you could benefit from drinking a bit less and being more mindful of when and how much you drink, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15 day trial. You'll get access to everything that we offer, including tracking and planning tools, coaching from our experts, a vibrant community of people just like you, and the motivation and advice to stay on track with your health goals, all with no pressure to quit. That's sunnyside.co.