The Lie We Tell Ourselves About ‘Moderate’ Drinking w/ Molly Watts
Okay, Molly, thanks for coming on today.
Speaker 2:Hey, it's great to finally be here, Mike.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were just chatting to how it almost took us a year to make this happen back and forth on emails and schedules. So I'm glad we can actually pull it off today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Has, you know, both of us are busy and I am super excited to be here. So thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Well, it's gonna be a good episode. And I think a lot of people listening are gonna relate to your story, which is a fantastic story. And I wanna start with that because stories are sometimes the best teachers. So why don't you take us back? What did your daily drinking or just drinking career, I guess we'll say career, but what did it look like back then?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, I am the daughter of someone that my mother was someone that we would have described as an alcoholic, a physically dependent person who really struggled with alcohol for most of my life. So I had from the very, you know, from my very earliest rememberings, I had a narrative around alcohol that really was kind of complex, I guess is the best way of putting it. Very much hated what my mother was like when she drank, but also was around it all the time. Counter intuitively, was a big part of the social scene for my parents, and grandparents actually owned a liquor store, so there was like this weird dynamic in way that I thought about it.
Speaker 2:Definitely grew up experimenting with alcohol in my high school days like all of my friends, nothing different, just normal. Went to college and like everybody else around me was, you know, I didn't drink during the week but I definitely drank on the weekends and you know that was kind of what I did And never really thought about it as I started into my professional life and started, you know, got married and had young kids, that my pattern changed from being kind of weekends to then being daily. And it was what I did to drink, to unwind and relax from my life, from work and from these kids. And that started in my late 20s. And really for thirty plus years or thirty years, it really just sort of, you know, or twenty five years, went on and on and developed into a pattern where I was drinking three to four drinks a night every night and then more on the weekends, more on vacations, more parties.
Speaker 2:But the pattern of that daily drinking habit was, I would have told you that I was a moderate drinker. Like I didn't, I very much separated myself from my mother because she was an alcoholic and I know what she acted like and I didn't like to feel altered. And I didn't drink hard alcohol because that's what she drank, so you know, a beer and wine drinker and not like I had all these kind of stories around it that helped me separate my behavior from being a problem drinker. That's why it felt to me like I wasn't really you know, it wasn't really bad. And I was very functional, right?
Speaker 2:So I was very high performing, had a job, had kids, was busy doing it all. And it wasn't until I started focusing on the habits that my dad, who was kind of the antithesis of my mom in terms of just being somebody who took good care of himself, was very optimistic as they started to age, I realized that my daily drinking habit was this one habit that kind of kept me from living my best life. And I recognized that I had a lot of anxiety around it, that I just didn't really ever acknowledge. Once I acknowledged that and looked at it, I started to use a cognitive behavioral therapy based protocol that helped me change my drinking I mean, my thinking about alcohol, which then helped me change my habit pattern around it. It took a lot of pieces from a lot of different programs and a lot of different ideas and strategies that were around me, but also a lot of it didn't have, didn't address kind of my own upbringing with having an alcoholic parent.
Speaker 2:So I used all of that and just kind of created my own protocol, my own system, and then eventually changed my own relationship with alcohol. That was back, in 2019. And now I tell people, you know, I I am not completely alcohol free. I consider myself an alcohol minimalist, which is why that the podcast is the way that it is. And I use a lot of science to support my the way that I include alcohol in my life, which is aligned with low risk limits, and I no longer have any anxiety around my drinking.
Speaker 2:I don't drink on a daily basis. I don't use alcohol to try to change how I'm feeling, and it's just completely different. A lot of peace and a lot of freedom around it now.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love the the conversation that we're gonna have here because we both talk about this a lot. You know? And one thing that you said that really stands out that I think a lot of keeps a lot of people stuck is that you said it really wasn't that bad, you know? And benchmarking yourself maybe to what you think would be bad can make change really hard because it just doesn't get painful enough to be forced into that.
Speaker 1:It's almost like you have to step into it and make the clear decision yourself. And like you said, you started to realize it was keeping you from your best life. Was there a moment that you remembered thinking to yourself, things have to change?
Speaker 2:Yeah, think that I, like I said, I had actually become involved in like a passion project business that was all about optimistic aging and living a happier, longer life. And it was really science based and foundationally on these five habits that are known to support not only longevity, but overall happiness. And so I started doing a lot of work on habit and mindset, and then I got introduced to this self coaching model that I use now and I've learned and mastered and teach my clients. And it was like this just, I don't know, I guess more of a light bulb moment I would call it. Like, oh, interesting.
Speaker 2:Like, so this is all these stories that I've held on to for so long around alcohol. Are they really true? Are they serving me? Are they helping me, in a way that allows me to change this habit? Or are they actually driving me to keep the habit and stay stuck?
Speaker 2:And once I started to think of it that way, then it was like, oh, okay. Like, this is I I had this long standing belief that this was, like, my one vice, like, the one habit that I just couldn't change, that no matter what I you know, that I just it was the one thing. And I had a lot of, stories that I had a genetic predisposition to desire alcohol more because of my mother. Right? So I had a lot of things that I never challenged, that I accepted, that I just kept perpetuating because I kept thinking them and believing them, and as I believed them it made change harder, and it made it so that it drove the desire to continue to drink on a daily basis.
Speaker 2:Once I started to challenge those beliefs and understand that the things that I actually thought or the narratives that I was holding on to weren't even true, then it became a lot easier to impact change.
Speaker 1:Yeah. A lot of those those preconceived notions, things like if you don't have a problem, then you're a normal drinker. And then if you do have a problem, your only solution is probably give it up forever, which makes people You very know, like, well, I don't know if it's a problem. It doesn't seem like a problem, so I don't really need to change. And if it is, then I gotta stop.
Speaker 1:So in that, in your journey, did that feel like it had were you considering, like, get having to give it up forever, and did that keep you stuck a little bit?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that was part of the problem is that I was completely convinced that I could never give it up forever. Like, that just was not even, like, doable in any remote sense. I'd never I hadn't had, like, an alcohol free day or an alcohol free week in, like, since I'd last been pregnant, you know, like, twenty plus years. Like, that just, like, the idea of it, the the sheer thought of going for thirty days alcohol free just made me, you know, very afraid, like, because I was very convinced that I would never be successful. So when you feel like that, of course, you are highly not motivated to take any action.
Speaker 2:So you're like, yeah, that doesn't sound like a way that I'm gonna be successful, so I think I'll just stay right here. And that I think was for me one of the things, like I said, the opening up of my mind and understanding that some of these things that I'd held on to for so long, one of the ones that I talk about a lot is this idea that I needed to drink to relax and unwind. That was a very common thought pattern that I had. Like, the sentence would literally be I need to you know, I need a beer. I need a glass of wine.
Speaker 2:And, that wasn't you know, what I learned through the science, and I know you and I both like the science, was that this idea that I had wasn't even the the amount that I was drinking on a daily basis was actually causing my neurochemistry to be more, you know, to have an imbalance of excitatory neurotransmitters, which was causing me to feel stressed out and anxious all the time. So it's like I didn't understand that I was actually driving my own behavior. Once I understood the science of it then I was like oh okay so this thing that I believed for a very long time isn't even true. So if it's not true, then what are we gonna do to to change this behavior, you know, outside of that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I know speaking from personal experience, I couldn't even imagine myself stepping out of it or even when I was in the frame of mind when I wanted to, it was always next month because this month we have a party or this week we have, you know, an upcoming event, you know? And so talk to me, like, what was that first piece of science that made you think, you know, this might work?
Speaker 2:Gosh, I'm gonna have to think back to what I actually like the first, I think probably, like I said, the neuroscience, one of my very first things that I read that I, a book that I still recommend to people was, The New Science of Alcohol and Your Health by Doctor. David Nutt, William Porter's book, Alcohol Explained. These are books that I definitely took on very early to gain some of those scientific kind of things. I literally would Google things and go into the science research papers. Like I said, I'm kind of a science nerd, so I actually enjoy reading all of that stuff.
Speaker 2:I also was really curious about it in the perspective of learning because I'd always been somebody that did a lot of when I sought to understand or make myself feel better about my mom's drinking patterns, I dove into research to try to understand. Right? I couldn't make sense of why my mother who seemed to have a very a very pleasant life from all accounts, right, like didn't have a lot of the struggles that many people are burdened with in their lives. So from my perspective, I was like, what the world does she have to drink about? Right?
Speaker 2:Like, that's my mindset, my childlike demeanor of it. And so I used to always dig into science around addiction, science around alcohol to try to further understand her and understand and be more, I guess, compassionate or empathetic or just make myself feel better. So when I was in this pattern for myself, diving into science was just kind of a natural thing for me. And definitely that idea, the first probably that very first thing oh, and also the genetics. Once I figured out, like, the genetic factor wasn't really you know, the the the the bottom line for genetics is that, yes, there's probably a genetic link to having a, you know, a stronger craving or desire for alcohol, but at most, it attributes to, like, 50% of our of our behavior pattern and the other 50% is all, based on our own our own is just not not predisposition but our own behavior patterns.
Speaker 2:So if you think about it, it's lifestyle. Right? So if you think about it that way then it's like, well okay there's no excuse like there's still the other big percentage of this behavior pattern that is completely changeable based on my own behavior. So I just started to not listen like I was like yeah okay so this genetic, this idea that I'm somehow more predisposed is probably not because I actually am, but probably because I have created this pattern in my life. I have created this habit and this belief around alcohol, not because it's actually true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I 100% agree. That's sort of my interpretation on it. Mean, certainly our bodies all process alcohol different. We have genetics and a lot of different things, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your future is written in your DNA code.
Speaker 2:Right. Predisposed does not mean predetermined, and if you look at it from a perspective on alcohol, the reason it's clear to understand why it's not true is if you never drank alcohol, you would never become an alcoholic. So it's not the same as people having a genetic predisposition to be diabetic or anything else. It's different. And so we have to really understand that when we are looking at it in terms of our own habits.
Speaker 1:Totally agree. And sometimes I talk about this also is that some people will point to the genetic piece, but then also some people say, well, I just have that addictive personality. And I always like to point out, if you had an addictive personality, you'd be addicted to everything, gambling and cake and, you know, any other advice that you can think of, smoking, nicotine, like it. But in every conversation that I have, almost every single person that I talk to that's overcome this issue had many things and if not every piece of their life in order and this little small component that were already socially conditioned. First of all, we're socially conditioned on how to view alcohol and that it's acceptable and you should just know how to use this this addictive drug which it really is or the pre preconception social norms around, well, if you do have the problem without the proper education anyways, then your only solution is to just go ahead and, you know, enroll in some sort of abstinence only program.
Speaker 2:Right. I mean, the the narrative around alcohol is is continues to be very black and white, very much, you know, you either are somebody that can handle their alcohol or you're not. You have a problem, and there is only one way to solve that problem, and the problem is to is the only the solution is to just not drink. And that's where I think too I and why Sunnyside and I have been partners for so long is because we agree that there is actually a space in between there that allows people and I come at it from that perspective like if you are going to know like this is not to say that you should if you aren't already drinking that you should start for any reason there is no positive preventative health benefit. And then the stories that we hear about alcohol and the headlines and everything that are taught about alcohol is it's you really have to be willing to dig into the science and understand the science because it isn't as black and white as people would have you believe.
Speaker 2:It's not as black and white as the the stories that are that are kind of permeated throughout, social media and media and, you know, Hollywood and everything. Like, it's not a it's not a an elixir, and it's also, if we're going to include it in our lives it better be in a very minimal way because it is a known carcinogen. It is a toxic substance to the body. We have to be clear and that's really a mission that I'm very passionate about is trying to be as clear as possible for people to understand because much like what you just were talking about about that addictive personality if you do not address the underlying issues and the underlying reasons that you're turning to alcohol in the first place, whether it's a habit pattern that is just established or you are using alcohol to try to change how you're feeling, if you don't address that underlying stuff, you'll replace it with another another coping strategy. And whether that coping strategy is something that's healthy and beneficial or something that's not, like food or shopping or gambling or anything else, right?
Speaker 2:This is the nature of of addiction. It isn't that it isn't that you have an addictive personality. It's just that that's what human the the human brain does when it's trying to cope.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, immediately, I'm thinking about you hear a lot of people that switch from, really heavy substance to use jumping right into, like, marathon or ultra marathon running. And of course, that is much healthier in a in a constructive way to to concert your effort. However, there is definitely a link there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, again, it's like if you're not really diving into and addressing those underlying, you know, and that's at least for me, I really get a part and parcel to changing my relationship with alcohol was understanding how my thoughts, created how I feel. I had a lot of ongoing narratives in my life that created the feelings of stress and anxiety because I was constantly fueling them with thoughts that were very much that that drove that. Part of my process too was learning how to become someone who's more emotionally resilient and really understands there's always two different perspectives to a story. There's always two different ways to look at something and when I choose to look at something and see it in a way that helps me feel better, then I take better actions.
Speaker 2:And when I take better actions, I get better results in my life. And that is really what I have come to understand and really what I talk about all the time, and it is ultimately how I changed my own relationship with alcohol. It just tactical, it is addressing those underlying belief systems.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you definitely have to get in your head, you know, in a positive way for sure alongside. And then the tactical side is to plan for when troubles come because they will always come. But really in between those times, need to be working on what am I really seeking in this behavior with, you know, just journaling to yourself. Also, positive reinforcement. There's so many things that you gotta do.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, the tactical, if that's all you do, like, if I if somebody were to listen to my podcast or your podcast and hear something on urge surfing or on breath work, yes, those are amazing coping and, urge relief strategies. But as a standalone, that that isn't gonna stand on its own.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. And that's why I mean, you know, that's why, like I said, my partnership and and using Sunnyside has been such a great thing for people is because that's the tactical side. Right? Like, that is and understanding why it's important, having a plan, executing on the plan, learning from it, taking small incremental steps, looking for opportunities for continuous improvement.
Speaker 2:I'm always really motivated to help people create sustainable change for the rest of their lives, and we do it in very, you know, in very small steps. That's what I want anyways is I want somebody to come, you know, to to create a relationship with alcohol that they want to have for the rest of their lives. Like, they wanna feel and that's the way I feel about how I you know, I'm open like like, you know, back in 2019, could have never imagined a time where I would be completely alcohol free. Well, now it's like, you know, I'm like, yeah. Maybe maybe in the future I will just not be I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm I'm I'm good with where I am right now, but I never say never. And I don't say, you know, I'm very much have a different way of approaching it now. And I routinely I say I'm mostly alcohol free anyway. So it's like, it's just a very different way and a different mindset than I used to have. And I hope that that helping people get there is just as important as the tactical the tactical tools as well.
Speaker 1:I totally agree and you know one of the things that I wrestle with a lot is is what you just said there like well, first of all, I have no set permanence on any of my behaviors and in any of my life, you know, including alcohol, which is somewhat novel to some people. Like, there are long stretches when I have zero alcohol and people are like, well, so you, you don't drink? And I was like, you know, I don't know how to answer that specifically because it's not really my identity. Like, am I alcohol free? Well, right now I am.
Speaker 1:Does that mean I'll never have alcohol again? Well, in six months, I might, for example, we went to Spain. I hadn't had any alcohol for six months. We went to Spain. We were there for a little over four months.
Speaker 1:I wanted to have sangria. I wanted to have, you know, some wine on the weekends. And, now that we're back in The US, I'm not doing that. So, it's like, you know, that's that's also one of those things that you point, you mentioned there that I'd like to point out is just you know, that experimental approach and no permanence or self self identification on our behaviors.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I think it's I mean, they I've mentioned I know on on one of my episodes about the iterative mindset. Right? So, like, gotta be willing to iterate and look and change and be flexible. And I think this whole approach and this idea is very foreign to people, especially when it comes to alcohol.
Speaker 2:Right? Because it's so long in the in in in the recovery industry for so many decades, it is literally like there is you either can or you can't, and you should or you shouldn't, and it's either black or it's white. And so this idea that you can I mean and I know I've I've had this conversation with many people? Like, they don't they really question. Like, oh, like, could you do that?
Speaker 2:Can you really go to Spain for a few months and and drink and then come back and then not be wanting to still keep doing it? And it's like, yeah. Actually, you can. And Yeah. You know?
Speaker 2:Is it is it does it work for everybody? Not you know? No. And nothing does. But and and I think this is important.
Speaker 2:I always say this with my folks. It's like, you know, when I say I have a peaceful relationship with alcohol, that does not mean I'm unconscious about alcohol. That does not mean that I don't pay attention. That does not mean that I choose to not be mindful. It means that I have a I have this I have the tools.
Speaker 2:I have the skills. I know where and when and how much alcohol I want to include in my life. I have the science that tells me, like, why it's better. Like, like I said, like, I would have described myself as a moderate drinker when in fact I was by definition a heavy drinker, and I did not understand the offset trade offs that I was making with regards to my overall health and longevity and what that looked like over time. And once I realized that I was like, Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:So that's not a great plan. That isn't, like, really how I want to, live my life. Now that I you know, like I said, I have a different relationship. It does not mean peaceful does not mean that I never think about it, that I don't plan, or that I'm just you know, that I've turned it off in my brain. It means that I consciously, mindfully choose how I'm gonna include alcohol in my life, and I know why I'm gonna do it and when I'm gonna do it.
Speaker 2:I don't. I know I know the trade offs, the risk trade off that I'm willing to make and not willing to make.
Speaker 1:Yes. Well said. And, you know, this kind of brings me to your philosophy on this, and there might be some quite a bit of overlap on what you just said there, but talk to me a little bit about, like, what does alcohol minimalist mean to you?
Speaker 2:So I I I have, like, the characteristics of it, on my, I think on my website or in my Facebook group, but some of the things that are really important to an alcohol minimalist is that we use science to guide our decisions around alcohol. We don't drink to try to change how we're feeling, Right? So we're not using it as a coping strategy. We, we want to if we're going to include alcohol in our lives, we, like, give ourselves permission to enjoy it when we do. Right?
Speaker 2:And I think that's a huge differentiator because so many people talk to me about like well I want to be able to but every time I drink now I feel guilty like okay well that's not the goal right like that's not what we want we want want to be able to accept, the risk level again like for ourselves define what that risk level that appropriate risk level is being ever mindful of the fact that the more alcohol we include in our lives the higher propensity for negative outcome. Right? So it's just like being fully aware of that, understanding that less is better, and working to make those you know, have multiple alcohol free days include many and learn how to reconnect with ourselves in an alcohol free environment and way. And, yeah, I think that's, pretty much what being an alcohol minimalist means to me.
Speaker 1:No. It's great. I mean, it's, it makes perfect sense to me. And I'm curious because you've you've always been a supporter and advocate for Sunnyside. What was it about Sunnyside that that drew you in?
Speaker 2:Well, I think, first of all, that, Nick and Ian both and I all kind of come from a background of having some, you know, some family history of alcohol, issues. And so that their stories and their passion for why they started the company was very compelling for me early on. Yeah. I mean, I've been working with these guys since they were cutback coach. So, you know, a really long time.
Speaker 2:I think I'm the the o g of Sunnyside with them, and, they then their commitment to science, really truly like and commitment to also looking for opportunities to improve and our philosophy is just aligned very very naturally and so it's been a wonderful partnership, wonderful like I said it's a mutual admiration society I'd say.
Speaker 1:Yeah there's definitely nothing but love going both ways and so I just and it's all based around helping people with options that speak to them, which, of course, you know, feels good. So this has been such an amazing episode. Before we go, I want to give you a few, you know, the stage if there's any projects that you'd love to talk about.
Speaker 2:You know, we are, we're coming through a more dry July over here in my in my world on alcohol minimalist, and then, we'll be heading into, the fall and I've got lots of resources. I'm always I have an ongoing group coaching program. I work with people one on one which is unusual for people in my coaching space these days. So for with just being able to offer that opportunity one on one is still a great thing for people with me and yeah people can check it out at www.mollywatts.com or come to the come to Facebook and look for the Alcohol Minimalist Facebook group.
Speaker 1:Sounds great. Thanks, Molly. Thanks so much for taking the time to share with us, being open, and giving practical practical tips that people can use.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for having me and thanks everybody here at Sunnyside for listening.
Creators and Guests
