The Five Pillars That Help You Drink Less w/ Erica Mallery
Welcome to Journey to the Sunny Side, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and of course, your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunny Side, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardinbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. We're back with Erica Mallory, founder of Shame Over and a coach who helps women transform their relationship with alcohol.
Speaker 1:In this second part of our conversation, Erica shares her five pillars for lasting change. Change. You'll learn how each step builds awareness, rewires habits, and helps you gain confidence in your choices. Erica also explains why harm reduction is more sustainable than all or nothing thinking, and how defining moderation for yourself can be the most freeing step of all.
Speaker 2:I love that, and I want to get into your five pillars, but before we do, I wanna know, like, what inspired you to move in this direction where you felt maybe maybe you felt like some of the existing solutions weren't weren't working. Or for me, for example, I just kind of I didn't want anybody to have to do what I did, which was figure it all out myself, I felt, and I owed to, like, whenever I did find something to share it so somebody could have a shortcut. What inspired you to get to move into this space?
Speaker 3:Honestly, for me, it's I feel like my purpose for giving back to the world, and I see it as, like, generational healing because a lot of our drinking is genetic. Like, we at least have some something chemical in us for most of us. We do have a doubt or an upline downline, whichever you wanna call it, that drinking was a part of that. And I just I want better for my kids because, you know, like, are you American? I I believe.
Speaker 3:Right?
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm American. Sometimes Canadian. You know? Just had to make sure.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:Sure. Here in America, like, are taught you don't drink till you're 21 legally. But in college, that's literally the purpose of for most people, their college education is, you know, yeah, you go to school, but it's much so more about what you don't learn in the classroom. And, you know, there was not a single time in college that I sat down to have a glass of wine with someone. You know?
Speaker 3:So it was very much like you never learn how to drink. Then when you go, it's binge drinking, and you're supposed to never have a problem with it or never use it to cope or to deal with things or socially or any of the things. So for me, it was that was part of it was, you know, hopefully being able to model a better behavior so that my kids never deal with this, which, generationally, it is already looking better based on the the younger kids starting to not drink as much as we did. But more than that, it was the shame that I felt when I went and saw, like, if you're looking to drink less, you're an alcoholic. You should never drink again.
Speaker 3:And, like, no. I'm absolutely not. And if at that point I just stopped, I would have kept drinking until I probably did have to cut it out forever. I do not like the programs that that that's your only choice. You know?
Speaker 3:For me, this is so much about choice. And granted, I very seldomly drink. When I drink, I do not get drunk anymore where I used to love the buzz. I used to love overdoing it. Like, that was it was a driving for me, which being honest about that is a big thing.
Speaker 3:You know? There is no shame in that. It's it's your body enjoying what what alcohol is supposed to be doing to it. But I just knew people need to understand that they have a choice. And if sobriety freaks them out, it it did me too at that point.
Speaker 3:Now I could totally be sober. I never will call myself sober. That's a whole another thing, but I'm just not about the labels or anything. But being able to work towards it to me was the most freeing thing because now knowing I can have it whenever I want it, I don't need it anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Isn't that the ultimate goal? I mean It is so right there with you. Like, I don't say even when I'm, like, taking an extended break, like, like, sometimes it's been a year. Like, this last time, it was, like, five or six months, and I just don't like the permanence on anything.
Speaker 2:Like, I'm always gonna be growing and changing. I feel like when I slap that label, that's like a forever label. And Yes. If you change it, it means that, like, you're backpedaling or something like that, and that's not the case at all.
Speaker 3:Well, your entire identity becomes around your silver, you know, once you put that label on it. And then if you do decide even if you decide to have, like, a half a glass of champagne at a wedding or something, Like, that can completely alter your entire identity, and it should not. Nothing should be able to change your identity like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Totally. And then you go out for a drink, and it's like, oh, well, wait a minute. I thought you were sober. So it's like this, like, it's
Speaker 3:just place.
Speaker 2:It's too much. In my and by the way, I like that you're doing the education around the kids and setting the example. But setting the example is for sure important. And, yes, we did not get education on it on how to drink. Because if if the I skipped that day because my education was go to pay $5 cover at the bar for penny beers and then stack your table with as many beers as you can
Speaker 3:until the
Speaker 2:till the cutoff goes for when the sale is off. And then was then it was off to the races.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Thank you, University of Arizona.
Speaker 3:I went to Boulder, so, you know, we we were known for our partying as well.
Speaker 2:Yep. I was, actually, we just spent the last three months in the Boulder area, and, I drove by the the fraternity house that I went to, and it I looked, and I said that nothing good goes on.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely. Do mind me asking what frat you're in?
Speaker 2:Pike Pike Alpha Pike.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I I was delta gamma.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. Yeah. We were all friends and partying in Arizona too. So that's great. I love it.
Speaker 2:So, like, let's walk through your five pillars. How do they support real change?
Speaker 3:So the five pillars that I have is really see it, feel it, shift it, sit it, own it, And I'll kinda break them down. But seeing it is all about awareness. Right? Like I said earlier, you can't change anything that you're unaware of. So it's really bringing that awareness to it, finding your baseline, everything along those lines.
Speaker 3:And then we go into feeling it. This is hard for a lot of people because why are we drinking? We either wanna feel the the goods, you know, that we get from it, or we wanna avoid feeling. And that's where most people are is they're just ready to be numb, to just shut down the noise for a second. That's where we really have to get into the emotions, the feeling, and really nervous system regulation, which, again, learning as a parent with two young kids.
Speaker 3:I don't think I was taught how to regulate, my emotions, and so now I'm having to teach young kids how to do that. Is a big part of this journey too. Then we go into shift. So this is where we're really rewiring our thoughts, our habits, working on mindset, and really understanding your beliefs around everything so that you can get into that shifting phase. Sip.
Speaker 3:Obviously, you gotta practice. So this is really drinking on purpose. Mindful drinking, I know, is something that people are becoming more familiar with, but going from just the habitual mindless drinking to a mindful drinker. I've definitely found that if you're drinking mindfully, it can be very hard to overdo it because you're so much more in tune with your body, with what you're feeling. You realize that the buzz can really only last so long.
Speaker 3:Otherwise, you're chasing it. And that's when it's a lot easier to stop that, you know, two or three, whatever that number looks like. And then the last thing is the own it, and that is having the confidence around it, the self trust with it. Because at the end of the day, when you are confident in your decision making, nothing else matters. You know, a lot of times people early on, they're not sure what to say.
Speaker 3:Like you said, like, do I say I'm sober? Am I just taking a break? Am I you know, when you're when you have the confidence with where you are, people, they they hear that confidence. They feel it. They typically don't question it unless they're really curious and wanna learn more.
Speaker 3:But they're not gonna question you and try to pressure you if they know you're confident. You know, with it's when they know they they can break it down like, oh, just one. Come drink with me. When you're confident, they're not gonna keep doing that.
Speaker 2:I love that well, I'm not in every social circle, but I love that it's starting to be more respected in general. You know? Like, especially just over it's easy to point to the health thing as your default anyways.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Well, especially at our age bracket,
Speaker 2:like healthy.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, and if that's what you need to use to feel confident in it, yeah. For health reasons, I'm just taking a break right now or I'm drinking less or, you know, whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know what? I really like to know because everybody's drinking is different. Some people were daily drinking like I was. Some people binge on the weekends.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it goes in and out. Sometimes people really like if somebody was a daily drinker and and the other person is trying to cut back, they'd be like, why? You know? Because it really isn't that much, but they have their own personal reasons. Sure.
Speaker 2:Sure. In working with people, have you found it more challenging for one group over another?
Speaker 3:As far as The
Speaker 2:amount that and frequency that they were drinking at one time to then shift into mindful drinking or even it could be since you work mostly exclusive with women. Do you do do you find that, like, maybe women are because of mommy wine culture or anything like that, are finding more challenging or because of certain times in their life, hormonal changes is making it
Speaker 3:more That's a really good question. I think that it's kinda twofold. Like, whatever problem you have, whether it is the daily thing or the binging thing, I think the biggest thing is just breaking that habit loop. Obviously, it's kinda the number one thing because for the daily, I know for me, like I said, it was the first month maybe in two or three days that I did not have a drink that month, which sounds kind of pathetic. You know?
Speaker 3:But at the end of the day, like, that was two or three days that I did not drink, which is amazing. You know? So it's it's seeing what works for you in the beginning as far as, okay. If you are the daily drinker, how about we just cut back a little bit that you're drinking each day? You don't have to build in a drink free day until you're ready for that.
Speaker 3:But even just like if wine's your go to, as soon as you open the bottle, pour a little bit down the drain. It's it's very hard to do in the beginning. I know. I was the kind who, like, did not leave any, you know, soldiers or whatever you called them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So that that could be you might need to work your way up to it, but it's gonna go down your drain or the drain. Pick the drain. But anything you can do to drink less. For the binge drinkers, I think the hardest thing is just the off button. And where I've really found it fascinating is as people are playing around with this, especially if you're how I was where I'm daily drinker and then binging on, you know, weekends or vacations, the more dry days that I would build in, the more I would drink on the days that I could drink.
Speaker 3:And that's where I realized the all or nothing mentality had to go because that's where the, you know, the most hard can come in my mind. So really just breaking it down and realizing, one, that this is all about for a reduction. And two, any reduction is reduction that needs to be celebrated. I don't care if it's announced. Anounced is announced last, and that can be celebrated.
Speaker 3:So really working on the step sized changes as opposed to the big extreme ones if you want lifelong lasting change.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I a 100% agree. I mean, it's easy to abandon things or or beat yourself up if you don't have those mindsets. And for me, I always found I thought that the dry breaking the daily was hard to go dry at first, but then I get through the first day, then, like, the second day. Maybe I would make it a week and mess up again, but then, like, I found that, like, once you get a little momentum, you're like, alright.
Speaker 2:I got through the first day. Alright. I got through the first week. Like, it it definitely backs off. But then when I did work in the drinking days, I did find that it took me a while to break the I don't want one beer.
Speaker 2:I want a six pack. You know? Yes. But but once I got to understanding how I felt and always chasing it, and I realized I just didn't enjoy it the same because I'd be like, it's just not gonna get any better than than where I am right now, and it's just gonna, like, feel worse tomorrow if I keep going. And it's good.
Speaker 2:Like, that's why you keep drinking because it's like you're trying to get there, and you just never get there.
Speaker 3:Yes. And I think that was one thing that really helped me a ton was when I realized, like, the actual science of what's going on in your body. And it's typically like, the buzz only lasts for, like, thirty or the big buzz that you're typically chasing is, like, thirty minutes or something crazy. And so what we're doing is we're trying to chase that buzz, but our body can only process essentially and drink an hour. So as much as we put on that, that's what leads to obviously us being drunk, the hangovers, all of that.
Speaker 3:So it's like once I realized, like, scientifically, my body can only process so much, it can chase this buzz, but it's never gonna get what it gets that first, you know, hit essentially. What's the point? And that really helped me with the I don't need eight. Two is fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Totally. It's hard to rationalize that in the moment when you're on
Speaker 1:your journey.
Speaker 2:But, but it is true, and it is better. And it it is honestly, it's anyone that over drinks, it's their dream. I just wanna have one or two because that's usually the regret. It's like, I just opened it to have one or two, and then you don't. So if you can get to that point, you're living the dream.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Exactly. Well, and on that note, it's very much, like, find what works for you, not only tools and tricks wise, but discover what moderation looks like for you. Because if I ask you your answer, it would probably be very different than mine and very different than, you know, all the people you've interviewed, all the people that I've worked with. You know?
Speaker 3:Moderation, if you want it to be successful for you, you need to know exactly what it looks like for you and have it feel right, not based on what CDC says or your doctor or that, but it needs to feel right for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I certainly have been my own guinea pig. I've experimented over the years. I've experimented over the years.
Speaker 2:I've, of course, with trial and error and Oh, yeah. And, you know, long periods of not drinking, sometimes trying drinking experience, and sometimes, like, realizing that that doesn't work for me. This does work for me. But the number one thing that I've always stuck to as my goal is I never wanna return to being a daily drinker, and I and I never have. I may have made some, like, decisions that I was like, you know, I'm not gonna do that again.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But I never went back to to that. So for me, that's always been my personal goal.
Speaker 3:I love that. My my number one rule for myself is not I do not drink for negative emotions.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:That's crazy. How quickly that can how how quickly your drinking is negatively motivated. And that that could be bored. You know? But if it's a reward for I had a bad day, I was stressed, kids drove me nuts today, I was fighting with so and so.
Speaker 3:You know? If those are the reasons you're drinking, it's never gonna get what you're trying to get out of it.
Speaker 2:I I love that. Because I one time I heard it, don't pour don't pour alcohol over stress or, like, you know, or or whatever. And, like, that visual to me, I always think about, like, you know, what stress looks like and just dumping out a bottle of liquor on it looks just a horrific, like, visualization.
Speaker 3:Yes. Well,
Speaker 2:let me ask you before we go, because you've thought a lot about this, and you're very self aware. So if you were having a conversation with your previous self before that you made these big changes, what would you tell yourself of, like, hey. Make the change now because this is what life could look like.
Speaker 3:Oh my god. It is so worth it. I can I mean, parenting is hard enough? Life is hard enough to be doing all that I'm doing right now with the hangover or feeling terribly physically or emotionally or having that shame show up constantly. It would just be horrendous.
Speaker 3:So I think the biggest thing I tell myself is it's so worth it, and you deserve it. And, yes, it might be hard, but it is so worth it at the end of the day. I mean, everything is. Everything that we've worked for is if you look at any accomplishment that you would put on, you know, top of your list, it's an accomplishment because you had to work for it. You had to persevere.
Speaker 3:You had to show resilience. It build build character. So if it's challenging, that just means you gotta keep going.
Speaker 2:Perfectly said. The effort, the challenge is worth the effort. So if anybody's listening and they're feeling challenged and they're feeling it's hard, it's worth the effort.
Speaker 3:So
Speaker 2:Erica, thanks so much for coming on today. This has been incredible. If anybody wants to find out more about you or you wanna mention any projects that you're currently working on or even just travel that you're excited about, you know, I'd like to give you the stage here for that.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you. Well, you can find me at shameover.me,me. I know. Kinda weird. That's the website, and then lose the hangover is my social medias.
Speaker 3:I I'm not sure when exactly this will air, but I do lower October every year followed by hangover free holidays, followed by dryish January. So, basically, just ways to focus on drinking less if the getting it out completely is not for you, at least not right now, then, you know, good opportunities there. And then besides that, I'm in the process of writing a book on this whole experience. So, hopefully, that will be out. If not by the end of the year, then definitely next year.
Speaker 3:So
Speaker 2:exciting. All great things. I love it. Lower October. I haven't heard that one, so that's cool.
Speaker 2:And, hey, good luck with the book. I know
Speaker 3:how how
Speaker 2:much of a challenge but worth it venture that is. So thank you, Erica, again for coming on today.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped hundreds of thousands of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 2020. And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30% in ninety days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking habits. It's not super restrictive. So if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week.
Speaker 1:If you could benefit from drinking a bit less and being more mindful of when and how much you drink, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. You'll get access to everything that we offer, including tracking and planning tools, coaching from our experts, a vibrant community of people just like you, and the motivation and advice to stay on track with your health goals, all with no pressure to quit. That's sunnyside.co.
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