No and Low-Alcohol Mixology with Derek Brown
Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and of course, your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardinbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. Join us in this episode as we step into the world of mixology with Derek Brown.
Speaker 1:We'll hear about his struggles with alcohol
Speaker 2:and how it led to
Speaker 1:a passion for no and low alcohol cocktails. Cocktails. Explore the art of creating drinks that captivate flavor, texture, and complexity all without alcohol. This episode sheds light on the evolving scene of mindful drinking and the growing demand sophisticated non alcoholic options in the hospitality industry.
Speaker 2:Derek, it's great to have you here. Thanks for coming on today.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Thanks a lot, Mike. I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2:So I would say that you're an expert, when it comes to a subject that a lot of the people that are tuning into the podcast, which is the subject of mindful drinking. And before we get into what that actually means to you and how you define it and where you see it going, why don't we just start back with your story? I know that you were in the bar industry, the service industry, and you're continuing to be in that in a unique way. So let's give a little bit of background on where that all started.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no problem. I started in the bar and restaurant industry, which we ominously just call the industry, when I was 16 years old. So the funny thing is I started as a, sometimes I joke and say a garde manger, which is part of the French brigade system and makes it sound like I was this amazing chef cook, but I worked at a deli and I was the salad prep. That's the reality. And I was scooping white fish and tuna fish salad, putting it on a, I don't know, maybe a bed of romaine lettuce and put a little olive on top.
Speaker 3:And so I kind of enjoyed it and I talked a lot in the kitchen, which the owner, Barry Schwartz, it was a deli called BJ Pumpkin, did not like very much. And so one day he's kind of a bearer man, he grabs me by the shoulders and pulls me behind the deli counter and he says, Here, let's put that mouth to work. And so I started working behind the deli counter, which is a funny story that, you know, in the industry, we refer to front of the house and back of the house. And I went from the back of the house to the front of the
Speaker 2:How did that make you feel at that time? Were you excited about bringing your face out there?
Speaker 3:I was a little worried mostly because I had to shave tongue. That was one of the things that I would cut on the deli slicer, cow's tongue. So just to be clear, nobody else's tongue.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's not an expression you were literally shaving a cow's tongue.
Speaker 3:So I was a bit worried, anyway, was the beginnings and it was a wonderful place to start out in many ways. And there was these great humans there, but they were also the people that I started learning from in terms of how to be in the world. And so as I went along and I worked in different bars and restaurants, mostly restaurants to start out with, I learned how to drink from them. And this is from people who are lifetime restaurant people, waitresses, cooks, people who are really wonderful people. But Anthony Bourdain, the late great Anthony Bourdain once rightfully referred to as a band of misfits, you know, and I fit right in.
Speaker 3:I fit right in.
Speaker 2:And I love That's an interesting way of putting it because most people like to say I started drinking, but the concept of I learned to drink, you know, I heard you say that once before. Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 3:Well, that's the thing is that, I mean, this substance, and I'm going go back into my background, but just as a quick interlude, this substance, which is something that has been throughout history revered and feared, something that has been lionized, regulated and banned from kingdoms, cultures and countries, that all of a sudden it is put in the hands of a 16 year old boy and say, Here you go, here's a beer bong, have a good time. There's not enough context to do something with it reasonable. So the people I learned from and the way I learned was just show up for your shift on time. It really doesn't matter if you drink. Everybody here does that.
Speaker 3:We all use substances. That's pretty normal. That's how we get through the day actually. And you know, I have some other experiences too with alcohol in my life. My father is identified as an alcoholic.
Speaker 3:My sister died in a drunk driving accident. So alcohol was really like omnipresent for me. Was there in so many aspects of my life. And then I think that as it went on and I drank and I started drinking with wild abandon, like when I became a bartender, it was this incredible moment because I had access to the liquor cabinet. You know what I mean?
Speaker 3:I had the keys. And so, we would shut down the shift at 3AM and we would drink until eight in the morning. And it was this vampiric lifestyle, you know, and it was not uncommon to have 25, 30 drinks in a night.
Speaker 2:Wow,
Speaker 3:yeah. And that was every night. That wasn't like, okay, we're just going save it for a Saturday. The normies, normal people were out there and they're like, oh, we're going have three drinks tonight. But young Derek Brown is like, well, we're just going to polish off a bottle of champagne, we're going to polish off a bottle of whiskey.
Speaker 3:And that just became so normalized.
Speaker 2:I can comment to that. So I used to be a bartender or in London it was called a barman and it was the same thing. Could have, even more so in The UK, you could have drinks instead of people tipping you, they'd say, I'm gonna have this and whatever you're having. And so you could drink while you were on shift. And I remember after work, you know, I used to have this manager and all he really did was sit around and have a half pint in his hand the whole shift.
Speaker 2:And I'd always wonder, how does he drink like that the whole shift? Then we go out and party. And then one night the cocaine came out and I realized, Oh, that's how he can drink the whole time. Sorry not to take away from your story, but I have spent a little bit of time in the bar industry, so I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 3:No, that only adds to it. And we're all part of the same group here. Like we've all been through it. So I think that it's all just to say that for me, alcohol was there at some of the worst and the best times of my life. And as I kind of progressed in the industry and I started learning about craft cocktails and started getting better and started winning awards and finally having my own bar that was named the best American cocktail bar.
Speaker 3:It was a wonderful feeling, but didn't shake all of this other stuff. The fact that I had a problem with alcohol. And one of the interesting ways to contextualize that is I didn't identify, and I still don't identify as an alcoholic. I had alcohol use disorder. And I think that your listeners are probably savvier than the average listener when it comes to this stuff.
Speaker 3:But just in case somebody stumbles upon this, alcohol use disorder is the sort of more contemporary way to put it. That's the medical term for what everybody else calls alcoholism. But with alcohol use disorder, some people, their recovery looks different than others. And some people don't identify like myself as being in recovery forever. You know, I'm not always hanging out in the basement with a cup of coffee, telling my story to everybody.
Speaker 3:Instead I'm on a podcast with a box of water doing it. Right,
Speaker 2:it's not a one size fits all, you know?
Speaker 3:That's exactly right, yeah. And I'm no expert on recovery, so I just want to clarify, I've only talked about my own experience. So when I finally got to the point where I had to, you know, look hard at this way that I was drinking and really kind of do a gut check, it's because so many aspects of my life were not in the place where I wanted them to be. I mean, I was ostensibly very successful. I had my award winning bar, I was a nationally recognized bartender.
Speaker 3:I was doing so many great things. I had bartended at the White House, I was the chief spirits advisor for the National Archives. Personally, my life was not great. The moment that I sort of recognized that, it was actually surprising to me. Right?
Speaker 3:It was surprising to me that alcohol was part of the problem.
Speaker 2:Was that a specific day that you remember or a time was it a that you came to over time?
Speaker 3:It is, I'm going share it and I have shared it before, and I just want to, maybe I'll have a caveat afterwards about something I think that's really important, but essentially I was separated from my partner at the time, the mother of my son, and I was pretty distraught. I was pretty unhappy on life, and that night a friend of mine, after we had an unimaginable amount of drinks as normal, Had a bunch of LSD and said, we should take this. One of my smarter friends said, do and then I did. And we ended up, I don't know how many tabs I took. Two, three, I still don't know.
Speaker 3:But I do know that in the morning I was in a bathtub with cold water, listening, blasting, like calming music, trying to just take care of myself, trying to live. Because I'd reached a moment where I was just inconsolable, crying, and at that point my friend had left and I was just, was soul scraping is the best way to put that. Want do this trauma dumping here, as they call it, but I mean, it was a hard moment for me and I had to make a choice about whether I wanted to live or whether I wanted to leave. And I made a choice that not everybody makes, right? Some people go the other way, and that's very unfortunate.
Speaker 3:But for me, I chose to change, and in that moment I chose to live because for me it was about, I had my son, I knew that I had people who loved me, even though it was hard, I was battling my mind. And I realized that I, first and foremost, even before alcohol use disorder, although these are certainly often correlated, I had mental health issues that I needed to address. And it wasn't the LSD, you know, the LSD just provided a little window into that. And so the caveat before I go any further is that I don't recommend taking a large dose of LSD to get to this point, you know what I mean? There are therapeutic uses of psychedelic drugs.
Speaker 3:Those should be under the supervision of a qualified drug.
Speaker 2:But probably not after like 20 beers under unknown settings and sets.
Speaker 3:Exactly, yeah. I think that's really important because sometimes it's like, all right, awesome, I'm just gonna take some mushrooms, my life's gonna be better. It doesn't work like that. But so I was on my way home. And when I say home, I called my partner at the time, who we were on the Alps, and I said, I just need to come back home.
Speaker 3:I just need to come back home. And because it was too tough. That moment was too tough, and I needed that support. She was kind enough to say yes, let's just at least come back home. I don't know if you've ever been in that situation, but so when somebody who you're in this conflict with and you're not sure where you're going go and they show you that kindness, it's very powerful.
Speaker 3:And on the way back home, just felt alcohol is a problem. I never really thought about it before. It almost sounds ridiculous, right? Like I'm drinking, 25, 30 drinks a night. It's part of my lifestyle, it's my job, it's my hobby, it's how my friends' group is all about alcohol.
Speaker 3:Everything is centred around alcohol, but I don't even recognize it's a problem until this moment. And then it just poof, right in my brain goes, this is a problem. And I start looking at all of the aspects of my life that alcohol touches and it's not improving it, it's not making it better in any way. It's doing quite the opposite. And so I made the decision to get, medical and therapeutic help.
Speaker 3:So there was a little bit of a space in between that, but I actually checked into an outpatient program, whereas intense therapy started working with doctors and therapists and taking therapeutic drugs, and then just really working on myself. And through that process, it was really hard because it is work, they call it the work, because it's a lot to do. But it really opened a door for me to start looking at the world differently and looking at myself differently. And I started learning more about health, about nutrition, about mental health, about drinking and its effects in an honest way, in a way that showed both sides of it. Because even with all of this, I'm not saying alcohol is bad.
Speaker 3:I think in that moment it was bad for me because it was a medicine, it was a solve for me. But it was bad specifically because it was the wrong tool for what I needed, right? So the mental health issue, I was able to get help and finally was diagnosed having bipolar disorder. And that led me to a place where I could get help and use the right tools to support my health. And that opened the door, as I mentioned.
Speaker 3:And from there I started really doing everything I could to help myself, whether that was eating well, that was movement, that was all this other stuff that I think everybody knows to some degree, right? Meditating, going to therapy, things that are to help us live an even balanced life when we feel out of balance and we feel uneasy. And that brought me to another crisis, which is this, Mike. I had been telling people all along, drink this amazing rye whiskey, you know, try this great cocktail. And then what was I supposed to do now?
Speaker 3:Just telling them like, I'm just kidding, don't drink. You know? So I had this new problem was that I had become in a way an expert on cocktails and spirits, but now I don't funny enough, for a while, I did drink a couple drinks here and there, because, like I mentioned, my problem maybe isn't the same as other people's who identify as an alcoholic. I didn't identify as an alcoholic, and I could have like two drinks a month, and I was fine with that. But eventually, I just stopped drinking because I had put myself in a place with all of this work that I didn't need it anymore.
Speaker 3:I felt not great all the time. I mean, it's silly, nobody feels great all the time, but I felt much better, and I felt like I had the tools I needed to deal with life's inevitable slings and arrows, if you will. With that, I didn't need alcohol, which was a bad tool for me in the first place. And so I finally gave it up, and I still don't drink, but I kind of reserve that option. But again, it brought me to this conflict, and I had to make a choice to how I was gonna move forward, whether I was to become a real estate agent, or I was gonna say
Speaker 2:Tell me about the conflict. Was the conflict rooted in that you didn't want to be around alcohol, you didn't want to be in that setting, you didn't feel good serving it? Tell me about like what that inner conflict that you said, yeah, this is not what I'm going to keep doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, it was kind of a bunch of stuff. Like, I didn't feel as comfortable around people who were drinking a lot and I didn't want to drink, but I also didn't enjoy being around a person just saying the same damn thing three times in a row. People who were kind of stumbling or maudlin or angry for no reason. And I don't, you know, like, I'm not trying to like criticize people.
Speaker 3:I think everybody has to go through their own path. We all know drunk people are annoying. I mean, that's not a surprise. Those listening out there should not be surprised. I thought I was charming the whole time when I was drinking, but it turns out I wasn't.
Speaker 3:And I think that that is a common problem when we drink too But okay, I mean the bars that I own weren't exactly like, you know, these places where people are just hammered all the time, certainly people have a couple drinks, and I didn't feel comfortable around them, but also I didn't want to stay up late. My lifestyle was changing. And also, I didn't know at first where to put alcohol in terms of my outlook on life. Because it was a problem with me, I wasn't sure where to draw the line, right, like how to tell other people where they should or shouldn't drink. And I think I resolved that in a very simple manner, and it's this, I don't really care if you drink or don't drink, it doesn't matter to me at all, I can't control what anyone else does and I actually don't want to.
Speaker 3:So it turns out to be a really good save for that, I don't care. But when I say I don't care, I don't mean that I don't want to offer opportunities for people to drink non alcoholic drinks, I don't want to share my vision of mindful drinking, that I don't want to share ways that people approach alcohol, because I definitely want to teach people how to drink, but I only want to do it under the circumstances that that's something that they want to, right? Like I don't want to go out there and force anyone to drink in a certain way. And it's one of the reasons that mindful drinking, I think, is the path that I approach, because it's about intrinsic decisions. It's about decisions you make for yourself.
Speaker 3:So certainly if somebody says, hey, I want to drink differently, because of peer pressure or habit or conformity, I end up drinking way more than I intended. Or I end up drinking when I don't really want to drink. That's where I feel that I can be helpful and supportive. And that's the key there, helpful and supportive. I don't drive the bus there, I'm just there to help.
Speaker 3:I don't know, maybe a mechanic or a bus monitor. I don't know. Actually, I lost that metaphor really quickly.
Speaker 2:I fully identified on what you're saying though, because I wrote a book to help with mindful drinking and I've gone on quite a few podcasts and people have asked me before, you know, how do you get somebody that needs some convincing? And I didn't write that book for those people. I wrote it for the people that are ready to pick it up. It's not my place to say, Hey, you need to reduce or quit or whatever. I'll be here to help you if that's when you get to that point.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it relieves a lot of the pressure of what you're saying there by not taking on that load to be able to say, Okay, I think you should reduce or you should quit or whatever. So I think that that's a wise decision on your part for sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it turned out to be so wise. Not controlling other people's lives means that you can spend more time on your own. And I think that's wonderful, that connection. And so, recently I authored a course with the National Academy of Sports Medicine on mindful drinking. And in it, really laid out sort of my whole perspective on alcohol.
Speaker 3:And the first chapter is on alcohol and society. And I talk about how important it's into our society, how it's connected to us through evolution, how it is part of our cultural food ways. And by that, I mean, literally like there are, you know, I've been in Guadalajara at these tavernas, which are essentially distilleries in the backwoods where they're making agave based spirits called ricea. Sometimes people refer to it as mezcal as well. And they've been doing it for hundreds of years.
Speaker 3:I don't want to tell them not to do that. I think it's wonderful that they do that, and that's such an important part of their culture. And so I start there in this course, but as I go through, I try to share, you know, what alcohol is, what type of production, what ABV means, what, you know, like I was talking to, I was training a group of bartenders yesterday and, we were just talking about something as simple as ABV, which means alcohol by volume, and it's on the side of any bottle of alcohol, it says the percentage. And for a lot of them, that was the first time that they'd really heard about what that means. I should qualify.
Speaker 3:It wasn't the bartender, it was the servers who didn't know what that The bartender should know what that means. It's, and I think the public out there doesn't generally know things like that, right? Alcohol.
Speaker 2:I definitely did because I would look for the beer that had the high ABV on it. Let me check this Sometimes
Speaker 3:it's a double edged sword, right? But I think that like, when I was able, you know, in the course, I'm able to share just how to look at that, like how you can make plans when you're thinking about how you drink, like what you're going to drink can greatly affect it. Because something like vodka has 40% alcohol by volume, which means that if you had 10 cups, four of them have the alcohol in it, and six of them have water and other sides.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 3:So that's, you know, if you get 1.5 ounces, which is a standard size shot of vodka, versus a pitcher of beers, which is 5%, generally around 5%, obviously you know it can get much higher, it's around 5% alcohol, then the pitcher is more volume, so there's going be more alcohol in than the shot of 40%. So I don't want to throw out math out there and make people confusing. All I want to say is that shot of vodka is less alcohol than an entire pitcher of beer. And so that's something that can be confusing to people. So they go, I'm drinking beer, I'm fine, I'll have seven.
Speaker 3:But it doesn't really work like that. We intuitively know that, but we don't always. And so in the course I walk through things like that and I try to make it very conversational and pretty plain. And then we get into, you know, of the problem behaviours around, or problem drinking, not behaviours per se, but you know, some of the health aspects of it, and finally how
Speaker 2:it Is that becoming more of an industry thing these days?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, absolutely. Mean, in my industry we have one in five people, according to the SAMHSA, we have one in five people who have a substance use disorder. And when I say that to people in my industry, they often look at me like that's it, because it's probably, that's self reporting, they're probably pretty low. I think that we're attracted to this industry for many reasons and one of them is because the alcohol flows and it's normalized.
Speaker 2:Yeah, think so and it becomes even more available and you're within a, I guess a subculture or just a company culture that says it's okay. Like you said, if you have drinks, it doesn't matter as long as you show up tomorrow.
Speaker 3:That's right. Yeah. And so I do try as much as possible to advocate within my industry for the changes that we need to make around that. And also at the, you know, how we can help each other and support each other through that because sometimes it's also we don't know what to do when somebody might be drinking too much. And in that case, within my industry, that's when I talk a little bit more about recovery and how we might be able to help each other.
Speaker 3:And mostly it's pointing people towards the right resources because, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not an expert on recovery, I'm just an expert on my own recovery. But when it comes to mindful drinking, that's something that we can all embrace and think about. And that's even if we don't identify with having a problem with alcohol, right? I mean, think this is the holiday season and all of us are going to be facing just an insurmountable amount of alcohol, you know, like eggnog and champagne and shots and with friends and all kinds of drinks out there. And so sometimes it can be hard to turn it down because you don't, you do want to be part of the party, right?
Speaker 3:You don't want to walk away from having fun. You don't want to walk away from your friends and family, even if you don't always want to drink like that. And so that can be a real challenge during the holidays. And so mindful drinking is a way to approach that, especially if that's something you feel you need.
Speaker 2:I 100% agree. I mean, think that the more traditional or old school methods, it's a very hard ask, which is basically, yeah, it's either you drink or you never drink again, which includes a label. Whereas there's this broad spectrum of people on how much they drink. There's also a spectrum of how long they've drank and where they are in that timeline. There's a spectrum of when is enough is enough to either take a step back and reduce or just take a break or decide later down the line, just like you, know, Hey, I'm a mindful drinker, but right now I'm not drinking.
Speaker 2:And I just that's what works for me in my life. I think that taking that softer approach to get people to accept the idea that, Hey, I'm doing something just like I would with my nutrition, with my fitness. I'm doing something to improve my health, my mental health, my habits. You know, I take a very habit based approach to it. Sunnyside obviously takes a habit based approach to Do you find in your industry and the people that you interact with that the concept of mindful drinking is more received and heard?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, I mean, one of the things for better or worse is people in my industry, we see drunk people all the time, you know, and we, you know, it can be a reflection on us and we can kind of look at that and say like, okay, that's not where I want to be. So when I talk to bartenders about drinking mindfully, and I talk to them about no and low alcohol cocktails, very often they're the most receptive because they kind of get it, you know, they know, they might have, you know, see people drinking too much, they even, you know, have people who they know who are in recovery and stuff like that. So they sort of understand that this is a part of a world where somebody who I don't know, and I don't want to judge people who are accountants, do they spend that much time around drunk clients? Probably not, you know, like, so I think this gives us a window or a different perspective. And so bartenders tend to be pretty receptive, but obviously then you have both ends, people who need the help and people who see that other people need the help.
Speaker 3:And so I don't know, it's a complicated picture.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, you have a very special and unique skill set around the, is it NA and low alcohol cocktails? And I think a big part of like, if we approach it with this habit formation mindset, swapping bad behaviors with good behaviors, which are tied to rewards. So I think that that's exactly what you provide. So I think the people that could be listening to this might be interested in how to make those.
Speaker 2:I know I am actually. I mean, I've done some stuff at home and it seldom comes out the way I'd like it to. So maybe you could do you have a specific approach when it comes to no alcohol, low alcohol cocktails?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to share my entire approach, but first I'm going to just, I know this is your podcast and Sunny Side's podcast, so I'll plug Sunny Side and just say that I think that apps like that can be super helpful. Because we haven't really even got into like how you do it. I came up in my course with an acronym called RATE, which is replace, avoid, temper. Temper means to lessen, in this case, not to get angry.
Speaker 3:And enlist help. So that rate, like the rate you drink, but replace, avoid, temper and elicit help. And the elicit help is reaching out. Sometimes it's like, let's say you're doing dry January or dry ish January as you all kind of push, which I think is a good thing too.
Speaker 2:Why do you think it's a good thing? I'd be curious to hear your feedback on that. The concept of dry ish.
Speaker 3:Because I don't think everybody has to stop drinking. Plain and simple, right? I mean, I think that for some people they just need to slow it down or they need to get to a place where they feel they're in control and it's not a matter of being pressured by others. So I think, or just conforming to that night, like, oh well, everyone's going to drink, so I guess I'll drink too. I think that that's really an important part of it.
Speaker 2:I think so too.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So sometimes you just need help. Need to maybe have a buddy that you're doing it with. That's a really helpful way to do it, especially if you're both on the same page. But sometimes you don't, and actually sometimes maybe you don't want to share that with other people.
Speaker 3:Even in the beginning when I stopped drinking, I was a little uncomfortable with how I shared that. An app could be a useful tool for that. So I really want to plug that and say I think what you all are doing is fantastic and people need these tools. It can be incredibly helpful. But how we make great no and low alcohol cocktails is I think what you really asked me.
Speaker 3:And so I think that the easiest way to do that is if you go to your favorite independent bookseller and you purchase Mindful Mixology, a comprehensive guide to no and low alcohol cocktails by Derek Brown on Rizzoli, thirty nine point nine five makes an excellent holiday present. That's the best way to do it.
Speaker 2:You heard it, go to Barnes. At bookstores, go look
Speaker 3:for that Yeah, exactly. So no, I'm just kidding. You can get it on Amazon for $20, I'll send the free book. But I think that when I wrote the book, the approach was simply, what is different from a cocktail, a non alcoholic cocktail, let's say, and a glass of lemonade or iced tea, right? Because they're both non alcoholic, so why are they different?
Speaker 3:And so, when I started thinking about that, I started thinking about what are the sensory characteristics of a cocktail. And I came up with four sensory characteristics. One is intensity of flavor. Cocktails are intensely flavored. When you drink a gin and tonic or an old fashioned, you're not.
Speaker 3:It's not like, you know right away it's a cocktail. Two, there's this pegancy or bite that comes out of it. Sometimes they call that stopping power. In a way, there's one part of the cocktail that you don't like and it can be bitter, it can be spicy, it can be intense, but it slows you down. And so I know that like that seems counterintuitive, why would you drink something you don't like?
Speaker 3:But think about lemonade or a sweet iced tea. Those are so easy because they're eminently drinkable. Imminently, eminently, something like that. They're just drinkable, you know, crushable. But when you have an old fashioned or even like a Tom Collins or whatever, there's a little thing in there that slows you down a little bit and that's the stopping power.
Speaker 3:I think that's an important part of it. Peking is what I call it. And then there's a texture. Cocktails have a certain texture to them. They're richer than icy or lemonade.
Speaker 3:And finally there's a length that's not taken up. And this is like a volume that's not taken up by sugar or juice. And that's important because I think people think of mocktails and they think of just juice bombs, you know, just all sugar and juice. But when we're crafting and making non alcoholic cocktails, that's part of the consideration to make something more complex than that. So the reason I mentioned those is because that sounds very heady and theoretical, it becomes very practical and let me explain how.
Speaker 3:So let's say you took a glass of lemonade and you wanted to turn it into a quote unquote non alcoholic cocktail. I did that, I created a cocktail called the pinched butter and it is with lemon, I use ginger syrup instead of the simple syrup or sugar, and that ginger gives it a little bite. Then I add something called aquafaba, which sounds very fancy, but it's literally just chickpea water. It's a plant based replacement for egg whites And so I add aquafaba and I add salt tincture, so just a little bit of salt added to it, which I first blend with water beforehand, four parts to And a two bar spoon of apple cider vinegar. Apple cider vinegar is a byproduct of alcohol, so it adds some of the rich, like intensity and some of the funkiness to it.
Speaker 3:So I put all that in there and the recipe's in my book and I'm happy to share the recipe with anybody too. And then I shake it and it becomes beautiful, non alcoholic sour. And it sounds silly because I'm like putting like salt and chickpea water and vinegar, but all of these build around those four sort of sensory characteristics that I mentioned. And so I think that that's the way I look at building non alcoholic cocktails. I say how do they fit into this, to these four sensory characteristics and then I use ingredients that can support that.
Speaker 3:But in a way that's how I create any cocktail. It just happens to be that that is applied in this case.
Speaker 2:That's fascinating. I mean, it's really a world that I don't understand or know at all. So to hear it, it makes total sense. And when I think of sort of the mocktails, alcohol cocktails, I do think of like these fruity, sugary drinks. And I don't tend to be a real drinker of those kind of drinks.
Speaker 2:So I haven't said to myself, oh, I wanna go have a mocktail or cocktail. Actually, let me ask you, how should I call it? No alcohol cocktail, mocktail, what's the term?
Speaker 3:I like non alcoholic cocktail because it's very directed to the point. You know, I think mocktail, sometimes people find that word offensive because it sounds like you're making fun of the drink, but also there's just this history of that being syrupy and sweet so that can be another way that people don't really want to identify with it. When you're drinking non alcoholic cocktails, or even low alcohol cocktails, you don't want be separated out and feel separate and different. You know, you want to actually feel like you're part of the group. And so creating an entire category that makes you feel like a child is probably not and best way to do that.
Speaker 3:But I also wanted to say that there's, because I did imagine as I was saying that, that there's somebody out there who doesn't even make cocktails going, I don't know how to do that, you know, apple cider vinegar. So I want to clarify that one of the cool things is that there are so many great non alcoholic beers, wines, spirits, and ready to drink, they call them RTD cocktails out there, that you don't have to get a degree in mixology. You can just go to the store and buy. And those are, you can get them online, you can get them in some cases on Amazon. Not that I'm unplugging everything.
Speaker 3:I'm not trying to plug Amazon here, but I just know, I know reality that people use it a lot. Sure, of course. And so I think that, and even all of these non alcoholic stores that are popping up, they're almost like liquor stores, they have non alcoholic spirits, wines, beers there. And the non alcoholic beers are among my favourite. They even have like Guinness Zero and Heineken Zero.
Speaker 2:Which one's your favourite of the non alcoholic beers?
Speaker 3:I mean Do you have one? I don't want to like pick just one favourite because there's so many, but I really do like that there's this craft, this group of craft beers that are non alcoholic. I just tried one by Sierra Nevada, which I know is a little larger craft company, it's I'm trying to remember. My mind I'm traveling, so I'm a little bit out of sorts. I think it's called it's trail something.
Speaker 3:I don't think about I hope that all is in.
Speaker 2:The reason I've called no. That's alright. I probably wouldn't have asked you if we were talking about actual beer for nonalcoholic beers. I feel like you either hit the mark or you don't. So it's pretty easy to disqualify a lot of them.
Speaker 2:I tend to like more of the maltier ones. And if it I like the IPAs when I actually did drink beer
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because of that ABV and less of the taste. But now if there's no ABV, I just realized I just don't really like the taste of IPAs. I just liked the effects of the IPAs. Interesting. Fair enough.
Speaker 3:I just remembered that Well, I didn't just remember, I looked it up. The Sierra Nevada Trail Pass, that was the one. I think they do a great job. And I think that there's lots of really good ones out there. Heineken Zero is like 50% of the market.
Speaker 3:Mean, it's like, it's out there and it's everywhere. I am in DC and I went to see DC United, the soccer team play and they have it at the stadium which is fantastic. So it's really accessible. We're also in D. C, we're having a mindful drinking fest, which Sunnyside is a part of, I'm really happy to say.
Speaker 3:And we have over 40 different non alcoholic producers and two days of parties and a grand tasting hall and wellness activations and seminars and stuff like that, that people can participate in. It's going to be January 26 through the twenty eighth in Washington, DC. Tickets, mindfuldrinkingfest.com. And think that's, things like that, there's more than ours out there, but I think that's a great opportunity to try a lot of different products at once and to see that this is fun too. Like you can go have fun.
Speaker 3:This is not about like just drinking soda water in the corner after you give up drinking. You can go out and have a party and have fun and enjoy your life. We're going do a rave at a club called Culture, which is a fantastic place. And, you know, really show people you can have a great time without alcohol. The thing is that what I like to say is that being social and social wellness is really important.
Speaker 3:And alcohol can be an important part of that, but it's also optional, right? Social being together is not optional, but the alcohol is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have the same experience, know, and I kind of align with you in that my past led me to take extended breaks with alcohol. I still will on very rare occasions drink alcohol, but by and large, I do not drink alcohol. It just doesn't fit with my lifestyle. Like waking up early, but I still like being social. And it's almost the most invigorating feeling when you go out, you have a great time, you're around, everybody's laughing and it's just the way you imagined it before, but you get to go home and wake up and you feel amazing the next day and you remember all of it.
Speaker 3:100%. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing incompatible about having a great time and being out late at night and waking up the next morning and getting your shit That is something that you can do, but it's in your hands to control, right? You have the levers to control that. And something like mindful drinking or using absence is just a way to grease the levers and make sure that you control them the best way for you.
Speaker 2:Well said, definitely. So as we're kind of wrapping up, and I think this fits in well with what we were just talking about, which is that you're seeing more and more of these nonalcoholic beers and cocktails in places. In fact, actually, I was talking to a friend of mine who was telling me that he used to go to the Lions games in in Detroit, and it was just like a drink fest. Every time he said it hadn't gone in years, he went back. And they actually were serving it, you know, at these rowdy ball games.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I think it's coming more and more mainstream, and you can find it more readily available. Do you think in your mind having so much experience in the industry, and I think you're very forward facing a change coming sort of in the bar scene in general when it comes to what's on the menu or the types of crowds they attract?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, bars and restaurants are really starting to expand their menus and if they're not, they're missing out because people want this. You know, I think there are already almost 25% of the population that doesn't drink alcohol. And then you have some statistics that people who are buying non alcoholic products, like ninety percent of them drink alcohol, so they're what we call substituters, meaning that based on the occasion they're switching back and forth. They could be also called mindful drinkers.
Speaker 3:And so I think that it's really important that bars and restaurants have options for people who want them because guess what, they'll just go elsewhere. And so I think smart bars and restaurants and hotels and stadiums and anywhere alcohol serves are starting to recognize that and starting to add to their repertoire, whether it's cocktails or beer or wine, it depends what they do, right, I don't expect every place to have everything. And I think that that's really, really important and great. That's one way that we can help and support everybody, it's like making options available because it doesn't dictate what you drink, it just says, here's an option. And you know, was at like a Vietnamese restaurant last night and they had a non alcoholic beer there.
Speaker 3:It was a Japanese beer called Asahi, but I was like, wow, that's really cool. Like every restaurant is finding their way of incorporating it. I actually am in LA right now, not DC, because I'm helping to open a restaurant, or I'm sorry, a bar that's entirely non alcoholic called Stay. And there's lots of growing options, it's going to a place that has some non alcoholic products or bars and restaurants that are entirely non alcoholic. It's there, the options are growing.
Speaker 2:Are those since you're in LA, are those non I'm curious to know because I also have my own thoughts about what bars will look like in the future. Potentially you'll have an array of different things that you could order that could be mood altering, whether it be, you know, maybe infused psilocybin or cannabis, or, you know, there's a number of different things you could. Are you seeing, is the cannabis sort of on the menu there at that location that you're working with?
Speaker 3:No, not at this location, but I think what you're saying is correct. This place is entirely non alcoholic and there's no cannabis or psilocybin. But I do think that that is the future. I mean, it's a future in which people have choices and the bar itself, the way that it's set up as somebody who's studied the history of bars, it's changed so much over time. It's, you know, in the last hundred years, it's changed.
Speaker 3:It's funny because we have these speakeasies that were kind of revivalist, you know, like with craft cocktails or classic cocktails, like the Moscow Mule, the old fashioned and that sort of thing. But they don't really exactly look like the bars of a hundred years ago, you know, things have changed a lot. First of all, it's a mixed crowd, you know, it's men and women and male and female identifying people. And there are, you know, they're standing and sitting, bars in the past where people would just stand at and they're serving out this wide array of drinks. I mean, just there's so much that's changed about them, it's not surprising that it will continue to change.
Speaker 3:I think sometimes we get a picture in our head of what something should be because it's a snapshot in time, but everything is always evolving and changing and bars are no different. And one part of that is non alcoholic coffee, part of that is other, what we refer to as functional ingredients or ingredients that might have health giving properties or effects.
Speaker 2:That's great. Well Derek, this has been incredible. Really is good information that I know a lot of people really have been wanting to hear. Why don't you tell us a little bit about you know, what's next? Like, where can people reach out to you?
Speaker 2:Tell us about this event that you have going. You know, fill us in so that people can continue to listen to your knowledge as you, you know, grow and expand and create these drinks too on top of it.
Speaker 3:Awesome, thanks. Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram at positvedamagenginc.com, positvedamagenginc, INC. And I have a website with the same exact thing, PositiveDamageInc.com. And I have a sub stack called Positive Damage. So all of those are ways that you can connect with me.
Speaker 3:The newsletter is free and it has lots of information about cocktails and non alcoholic spirits and wines and mindful drinking. And on my Instagram I usually share things I'm up to, whether I'm in LA or in a bar or doing education. Please follow me, I'd love to have you.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Alright, well thanks a lot Derek for taking the time. This was a lot of fun. We'll make sure to link all that up inside the description here for you, but I appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 3:I appreciate you Mike, thank you so much for
Speaker 2:Thanks a lot.
Speaker 3:For including me in your podcast.
Speaker 1:This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped hundreds of thousands of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 2020. And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30% in ninety days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking habits. It's not super restrictive. So if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week.
Speaker 1:If you could benefit from drinking a bit less and being more mindful of when and how much you drink, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. You'll get access to everything that we offer, including tracking and planning tools, coaching from our experts, a vibrant community of people just like you, and the motivation and advice to stay on track with your health goals, all with no pressure to quit. That's sunnyside.co.
Creators and Guests
