Neurohacking Your Brain's Potential with Toby Passman
Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and of course, your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardinbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast and habit change expert. And in this episode, join us on a journey into the world of neuro hacking with Toby Passman, a board certified neurophysiology trainer.
Speaker 1:And together, we'll discuss neurofeedback, neurostimulation, and the power of neuroplasticity to enhance mental health. We'll also talk about the effects of alcohol on the brain, the benefits of mindfulness, and the transformative potential of psychedelics. Tune in to gain insights into unlocking your brain's true potential and achieving a healthier, more mindful life. All right. Today, I am thrilled
Speaker 2:to have Toby Passman. Toby is a board certified neurophysiology trainer, and he has extensive background in psychology, neurofeedback and neurostimulation. And Toby and I actually met a couple months ago at the Wonderland Conference, which is a conference for psychedelics. And not only was he a participant, but he was a speaker on stage on many panels as well. So I got to hear firsthand some of the knowledge that you have.
Speaker 2:And I'm excited to have you here to share that. And that was a really cool conference, actually, because it was a mix of anywhere from the medical industry to VCs to pharmaceuticals to underground. So it was a mix of different knowledge all in one place. And the energy actually was really exciting to be around. And speaking of psychedelics, know that you had a psychedelic experience that was transformational, which I'm, you know, looking forward to getting into on this podcast today.
Speaker 2:But first, let's just turn it over to you about a general question around your area of specialties, which is biohacking and even more specifically, neuro hacking. Can you just explain to somebody that is listening that maybe has no idea about that, what that actually is?
Speaker 3:Of course. Yeah. And Mike, thank you for having me on. And I agree the energy at Wonderland. It was my favorite conference I went to the year before.
Speaker 3:Then so I was really excited to be there again this year and be speaking. It's honestly one of my favorite conferences. So glad to have met you there. But yeah, man, in terms of neuro hacking or bio hacking in general, you know, I think that a lot of people don't really start to think about how to take control of their cognitive functioning until things really go south. You know, we all understand even if we're not working out or exercising, we understand that we should be, that there are significant benefits to moving our body.
Speaker 3:Even if we're not in, you know, having some disease or having some issue with our shoulder, we could still understand why it would be advantageous to go to the gym and do some chest press and do some shoulder press to strengthen and improve our shoulder, even if there's nothing wrong with it. So why doesn't that same attitude translate over to mental health or cognitive performance? A lot of people, until they've had that traumatic brain injury or they're suffering from really severe anxiety, depression, PTSD, many different other afflictions, that they really start to get into something like doing neurofeedback or neurostimulation. So I think that times are definitely changing and people, psychedelics, I think, have a huge role in that, that people are starting to see these as tools, not just for medical applications, even though there definitely are those purely clinical research backed benefits of utilizing these different psychedelic compounds to treat and improve mental health disorders. But I think people are also starting to see that they can be used for general well-being, for cognitive enhancement, for peak performance.
Speaker 3:So I really view psychedelics as quite an adjacent field to neuromodulation and what I do as a neurophysiologist. So really harnessing the brain's inherent neuroplasticity, meaning the brain's ability to change and rewire itself, which can be done through exogenous chemicals such as psychedelic compounds. It can also be done through neurotechnology. That's really where I've focused my work. Yeah, man, so we can definitely get into more of that, but that's a bit about what neuro hacking is.
Speaker 3:And know, I'd be happy to share my my journey into into the space if if you'd like to.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. And to that point, I think, you know, as far as health goes, you look in the mirror and you see you need to make a change. And it's pretty direct what that path looks like. You have to get on with a good diet. You have to get on an exercise routine.
Speaker 2:And I think when it comes to the mind, it's not so straightforward, which I think goes hand in hand with the work that you're doing, which is you're trying to teach people how you can improve just like you exercise and give focus to your body. You can do that with your mind. So tell me about the path that sort of led you in this direction.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No. And I I think that's a great a great summary right there. You know, really from from a young age, kind of having both both kind of seeing some people within my family struggle with mental health, but then also dealing kind of as I was growing up, dealing with a lot of social anxiety and awkwardness back in middle school, high school. Class, going to school, was always pretty easy for me.
Speaker 3:I did really well in school. What was the hardest part was not actually going and taking the test. It was going to the classroom and having to make conversation with someone that was sitting next to me prior to doing the test. That was what brought me the most anxiety. So really trying to get a grasp on my own brain and understanding why I felt a bit neurodivergent and trying to understand why I wasn't necessarily picking up some of the social cues that seemed like other kids were and maybe were learning more quickly.
Speaker 3:I was an only child, I always kinda thought that that had, you know, nature versus nurture. And I thought that kind of the the nurture component of just not having as much experience dealing with only, with other people, you know, it's just me and my mom growing up. So a lot of times, I was left to my own imagination and I always had a very active inner mental life, but really struggled to kind of come across or to communicate with other people and to put forth my own authentic self. So that was something I really always struggled with and looked into different ways of improving that, tried more traditional routes, talk therapy, some psychiatric medications. And some things made an impact, others didn't really.
Speaker 3:But what I started to realize is that, okay, so if what I'm experiencing Basically, once I had the realization that what I was experiencing was the result of how my brain was functioning on a biological level at that point rather than it being some deep moral failing or or some part of myself. You know, I was not an anxious, you know, socially awkward person at a core level, that's what I was experiencing based on my brain not firing the way I wanted it to. And when I had that realization, I think that was really empowering to see what I could actually do about the situation. So that's back in high school when I started reading the Bulletproof blog. So Dave Asprey at the time was still just getting started and was writing about how you could optimize your cognitive performance through different nootropics.
Speaker 3:And then he also talked about sticking electrodes to your scalp and training your brain, which I thought was really interesting and bizarre, but got me really curious. So in college, I started working at a research lab where we were actually measuring people's brain waves through a technology called EEG, electroencephalography. And I became really fascinated in understanding and learning about all of the different brain waves, how they function, what roles they have in just shaping our behaviors, overall cognition, and really our experience of the world, our entire consciousness. And then kind of going out of college, learning that there's different places that actually work on not just measuring, which is what we were doing in that research lab, measuring people's brainwave activity, but then also actually training, which is where I got into neurofeedback, neurostimulation, and some of these other modalities. So as I was working with people ranging from people dealing with substance abuse and drug addiction to mental health cases, anxiety, depression, PTSD.
Speaker 3:Oftentimes, as I know you know, comorbid cases where people are utilizing different substances to try to calm their own anxious brain or trying to stimulate themselves because they don't feel anything because they're severely depressed and they're using drugs to try to do that, to try to kind of self regulate their nervous system. And then also getting into the realm of peak performance. So working with different executives, some Hollywood Actors, some really cool people at this Peak Performance Center outside of Seattle, and just seeing what was possible, both witnessing other people's transformation and then also seeing for myself when I did an initial brain scan and I was able to see that specifically an area of my left frontal lobe that's really involved in verbal fluency, I saw that that area was really dysregulated. And that made total sense based on what I was experiencing because I always had word finding difficulties. I was always struggling to express myself and communicate with people, which then in turn resulted in me feeling anxious and then the other person could pick up.
Speaker 3:Then I was feeling anxious, which made them anxious, which then I could tell, and then that made me even more anxious. So it was this vicious cycle, but really at the root of it was a lot of issues just in terms of verbal fluency. So when I started working on that and correcting that with tools like neurofeedback and neurostimulation, I started noticing really significant improvements in my ability to communicate with other people, which then translated to just feeling a lot more social fluidity without taking any sort of medications. Psychedelics then also kind of came into play and had some experiences that also really impacted and improved my social anxiety. But yeah, I really just saw that this stuff can be used in so many different contexts.
Speaker 3:People dealing with issues that I've never personally dealt with, such as drug or alcohol addiction, but then also issues that I had dealt with, which being the social anxiety. So I kinda saw for for so many people, including myself, how big of an impact these different modalities could have. And also just trying to figure out why so many people hadn't heard of them before. I'm guessing our listeners of the show today, maybe some people, depending on your audience, maybe some people have heard about brain mapping, maybe some people have heard about neurofeedback. But in general, the people that I speak to generally don't.
Speaker 3:Maybe they haven't heard of it. Maybe they've heard a little bit, but they haven't really gone mainstream yet. So my mission is really bringing trying to bring these tools that have traditionally been hidden away in research labs and small clinics and really bringing them to the mainstream wellness or biohacking community.
Speaker 2:Man, I love that so much. And one of the things that you said was that at your core foundation, I believe is what you said, it's how you were functioning, but it wasn't really who you were as far as, like, the social anxiety and all of that. And it sounds like you found a path for yourself to it. Is there in your company is Neuroflex. And did you feel like it was your responsibility having gone through that journey to self correction and self realization of who you were and who you became as part of your journey to share that with other people?
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure. I think there's some amount of I think a lot of people within the mental health space or with the psychedelic space, it's like people have their own transformations, their own journeys where these tools have really helped them or maybe helped a family member. And then they've dedicated their lives or dedicated their careers to helping other people. So I think that that definitely, you know, just going through those experiences as a kid and just seeing how much, you know, how much I struggled and and also how much better my life became when I actually was able to shed a lot of that social anxiety. And I suddenly was able to date and have deeper connections and friendships.
Speaker 3:And my you know, just saw I I had such a better quality of life. And realizing that if I hadn't found those modalities or hadn't ever tried psychedelics, I most likely would still be in that same position dealing with those same issues and not really been able to live out my full potential. So I think, yeah, that absolutely had to have instilled just a deep sense of mission to to try to help other people and and to try to bring these tools to them as well because it's something that I wish that I would have known about, that I would have had access to when I was 13, 14. And I think that's our When we're kids, we still have that The most amount of neuroplasticity as our brains are still wiring. So I think when we can really intervene at an early age, that's when you know, not to say we can't still improve people.
Speaker 3:I've worked with people all the way into their eighties. But, you know, really, really if something's going wrong, addressing it as quickly as possible and helping kids, you know, help their brains develop optimally, I think, could really just, or will really just revolutionize the way that society functions at large. And I think the different issues, mental health issues that have become so prevalent, I think in the future with tools like neurotherapy, with psychedelics, I think we're going to see that people are going to be able to not have to deal with depression for their entire lives. It's going to be something more akin to an infection where you need to address it, you have the tools at your disposal to do so, and then you can continue living your best life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a %. I think that, you know, mental health and just addressing these things that are related to the mind and behaviors are becoming less something that you kind of hide behind hidden doors and people are open to talk about it and are realizing that there are a lot of alternative methods that are coming to light that are functioning either even better than some of the previous ones. So tell me a little bit about how you work with people. I want to know, we talk about the names and the labels, right? The mind mapping and neurophysiology.
Speaker 2:Tell me what that actually looks like, you know, on for an everyday kind of person.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Absolutely. So basically when we start off by just understanding that the way our brain functions on a biological level, there's the chemical activity as well as the electrical activity. So most people are a lot more familiar with the different neurochemicals like serotonin or dopamine. There's plenty of other neurotransmitters, but people have definitely heard about those.
Speaker 3:What people oftentimes less talk about are the different brain waves. We're actually able to much easier measure what's going on in the brain on an electrical level, less invasively with a swim cap looking device that goes on top of your head. And there's a bunch of electrodes that are able to actually pick up the electrical activity that's emanating from the outermost layer of the brain, the cortex up to the scalp. So we can actually pick that up with a tool called an EEG. And then with clients, that's the initial step we do in EEG.
Speaker 3:We measure what's going on. And then through a computer algorithm, it basically transforms that data, which is showing up as squiggly lines, the squiggly little brain waves. So instead of looking at a bunch of squiggly lines, the computer then transforms that into these heat maps. So we're able to visualize and see certain areas of the brain that are producing too little, too much, or healthy amounts of each of the five major brain waves. Can you tell
Speaker 1:can you talk a little bit
Speaker 2:about those brain waves? So I off my memory, I've we got delta, theta, alpha, beta. Correct? Is there another?
Speaker 3:And then gamma. Gamma.
Speaker 2:Gamma. Yeah.
Speaker 3:At the at the highest. Yep. So those are the five major brain waves and exactly what you were saying. And that order two is the way I talk about them. So down at the bottom, the very slowest of the brain waves, have delta, which is mainly seen in really deep restorative sleep.
Speaker 3:But Delta's also one that when I see that in an awake state with someone's eyes open, that often indicates a past head injury or at least some degree of neural inflammation, whether that's from a head injury, whether that's from substance use, environmental exposure, toxins such as mold, heavy metals, different things can cause that or just poor nutrition, lack of exercise. But in general, when we see delta in an awake state, that's indicating a lack of blood flow and oxygen to the brain. And then also same kind of deal with theta. Theta is also indicating a lack of metabolic resources. It's kind of a drowsy, very kind of deep meditative state.
Speaker 3:So it's one that is beneficial when we're really trying to get into that that deep state.
Speaker 2:But Let me ask you real quick because anecdotal to when we were at the event. So the is it the ten years of Zen or seven years of Zen? Four years of Zen? Four years of Zen.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I sat down and did that. They put the cap on me, and I really had no background knowledge to it. And so you sit there. Did you do it while you were there?
Speaker 3:I didn't do it while I was there, but funny enough. So when I when I in the intro, when I was talking about the Peak Performance Center outside of Seattle that I worked at, that was forty years of Zen. Oh, wow. Cool. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I went through that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I, you know, I didn't know too much about it and sat down, didn't have a I'm thinking I'm getting to this crowded place. There's people talking everywhere. I sat down, put the headphones on. It's got waves and a gong.
Speaker 2:And probably about five minutes into it, I started like that gong almost took on a life of its own. It was the most bizarre thing. And it was, between awake state and sleep state. You know? And I do I do yoga nidra or the non sleep deep rest.
Speaker 2:And so I kinda can get myself to that state, but this was like a whole another level. And what what brain waves was I tapping into with that?
Speaker 3:It sounds like probably theta. So theta is one yeah. So theta is that deep meditative state that oftentimes when we're doing sort of that peak performance training, that is a common protocol to do like an alpha theta state because that's also where flow resides. So flow states where we're completely immersed in the present moment at the on the task at hand that is kinda at the alpha theta border. And there's some amazing work by, doctor, Steven Kotler.
Speaker 3:If you have ever have you ever written, or written, sorry, read the book Rise of Superman?
Speaker 2:No, I haven't read that one.
Speaker 3:Oh, man. It's an amazing book talking about extreme sports athletes, flow states, psychology. But basically what we know in terms of what's going on when people get into these heightened states of creativity, productivity, and awareness, whether that's through meditation, breath work, some psychedelics, and also just being in flow with our work or a good book or movie, our brains kind of at this alpha theta border. But talking then about alpha waves, alpha is kind of an idling rhythm of the brain. So calm, relaxation.
Speaker 3:When we think about alcohol's effect on the brain or THC, both of those in the short term are going to slow someone's brain waves down from Normally, most of us are spending the majority of our waking alert consciousness at beta. Beta is kind of a focused alert, sort of default state of the brain. But then when we take something like alcohol or THC, that's going to slow our brain waves down into an alpha state. Meditation, light meditation will also increase alpha waves. And then when we get deeper and deeper into that meditative state, then we enter into theta and some really advanced meditators could even produce waking delta, which I was talking about previously is kind of a pathological thing.
Speaker 3:But in some contexts, when we can actually do that, consciously through meditation, that can actually be a sign of, you know, really, really advanced abilities. That's kind of getting to Delta, Theta, Alpha, and then, you know, Beta being that focused alert kind of concentration when we're trying to study or work on a project where we really need to be at our peak state of alertness and focus. Our brain's mostly producing beta. So people having their morning cup of coffee, that's going to start producing the caffeine as a stimulant is going to increase beta waves in the brain. A pathological thing though, that oftentimes like the most common thing that I'll see with people's brain scans is that they have an overproduction of a specific type of beta waves called high beta.
Speaker 3:So these are higher frequency beta waves that are associated with excitement, agitation, but also when we record them just at baseline, if someone has a lot of them, that indicates that people are in a state of fight or flight. So anxiety, racing thoughts, worry, insomnia, a lot of different issues that people deal with. We're able to detect that they're producing a lot of these high beta waves just at rest. So that's kind of indicating that, you know, someone's nervous system is out of balance, that they're kind of driving the car with the accelerator slammed on. And that is very taxing for the nervous system.
Speaker 3:So it's oftentimes one that we're really wanting to reduce as we do neurofeedback training. But then lastly, so at the very top, we have gamma. And gamma is a really, really fascinating brainwave state because they've done a lot of recordings looking at like advanced Tibetan meditators, Tibetan monks, and have observed like basically at studies at the University of Wisconsin where they're looking to see what's different about long term meditators in terms of their brain functioning versus a non meditator. And they found that one of the biggest markers on a neurological level is that meditators frequently produce a large amount of gamma waves and gamma basically facilitates neuroplasticity. It enables, quick, speedy connections between different areas of the brain that may not be normally talking to one another.
Speaker 3:And this is something that they've also found within a lot of psychedelics ranging from ketamine to LSD, MDMA. I mean, really across the board, even the classic and, atypical psychedelics in general, they all facilitate neuroplasticity. And from a brainwave standpoint, they do that by really increasing gamma within the brain. So gamma is the state of peak focus, expanded consciousness, these heightened states. So sort of these peak experiences.
Speaker 3:But I would say what's important for people to understand about the different brain waves is that we're always producing some amount. It's like this symphony where there's always these five major brain waves going on at all times, but it's the levels at which people are producing the different brain waves that is important. So when we're trying to be really focused, honed in on a task, we want to be mainly producing beta. We don't want to be producing a lot of those drowsy theta waves that is indicating often indicative of ADHD or learning difficulties. Whereas when we get into a deep meditative state or maybe a psychedelic experience, it's normal for our brains to enter into theta, more theta waves.
Speaker 3:So it's always about kind of having, having the right brainwave for the right situation and being able to oscillate and fluctuate between the different brainwave states that indicates, you know, really healthy nervous system.
Speaker 2:That's a really interesting information that I think a lot of people don't know. So I'm really glad that you shared that. Give me an idea about like somebody that, you know, without disclosing anything. Give me an idea about somebody that walked in that really needed some big changes and some of the results that you were able to get. Is there something that you could maybe share in that way?
Speaker 3:Most definitely. Yeah. So I would say, one person that comes to mind, you know, when it comes to kind of peak performance and as well as ADHD, this is a videographer that I worked with who, you know, is a very high functioning individual, but he for the past, like, he was around 50 when I worked with him. And for the past decade or so, he had started to notice just some memory issues, a bit of, like, cognitive decline where she he just wasn't as sharp or focused, at his job as he once was. He was forgetful.
Speaker 3:He was losing his keys everywhere in the house, and he knew noticed that something was off. So with him, we and we did an when we did an initial brain scan, we saw a deficit of brain waves across the board. So low delta, low theta, low alpha, beta, and gamma. And when we see that pattern, that really indicates metabolic deficits within the brain. So when the brain's not producing enough energy, it's not getting enough blood flow and oxygen and the mitochondria aren't pumping out enough ATP for the brain to function optimally, people experience a lot of different issues.
Speaker 3:So, that's something that we know really from, the recently, like last year, this Harvard psychiatrist, Doctor. Christopher Palmer came out with a book called Brain Energy, and he tied together how different mental health issues such as depression, anxiety, PTSD, he wrapped all of these things. He tied them all together as metabolic issues within the brain. So where the brain's either some areas are not functioning, they're not producing enough energy, other areas might be producing too much energy. But for this person that I worked with, he was definitely in a low energy state and particularly where the brain waves were most decreased was in that beta frequency.
Speaker 3:And this was someone that did have, you know, clinical ADHD. So we saw that particularly most notably in the frontal lobes And the frontal lobes are really important for our executive functioning, for decision making, organization, inhibiting responses. So a lot of those things that, when people struggle with ADHD, they have a lot of issues because it's oftentimes those frontal lobes that are dysregulated. So with him, in addition to doing, we did a neurofeedback protocol where we're helping him increase the production of those faster, kind of a low beta state where it's a focused yet still relaxed state. So not overstimulating, but a really good one for the brain to be in.
Speaker 3:And then also I had him made some nutritional changes, had him cut out sugar. He was somewhat sensitive to dairy. We particularly focused on just kind of weeding that out. So some different things that when we see a low energy state within the brain, that's signaling that the brain's just not getting enough blood flow and oxygen to perform optimally, which can be the result of neural inflammation. And then also had him do some more kind of get back onto an exercise plan and then utilize some other technologies like infrared light therapy, audio visual entrainment.
Speaker 3:So these other modalities that work in synergy with everything else. But after about ten weeks of working together, we did a follow-up brain scan and we're able to see that compared to before where we saw within the brain maps, we saw like kind of all blue, which is indicating decreased or low activity. And then with that follow-up scan, we saw a lot less blue. So a lot more white indicating normal, healthy amounts of activity. Some areas, you know, where there is lighter blue, which is indicating, you know, more mild underactivity, whereas it started off severe.
Speaker 3:So that's another cool thing that the brain map not only provides a way to, get an initial baseline on people, but also how it helps track and measure people's changes as they go through an intervention like neurofeedback. So you can measure and see exactly if the brain is responding and making the changes in the right direction that you're looking for. So, you know, most importantly, he noticed, you know, a great improvement in his ability to stay focused at work to eliminate distractions. He was not losing his keys nearly as much and just felt a lot more focused. So that was something that really took place over the course of several weeks where he started noticing more and more improvements.
Speaker 3:And that's a common experience where unlike taking a medication, say Adderall, where people are instantly going to feel highly motivated, alert, focused, but then there's also this crash. It's good for the short term cognitive performance, but then you're also getting It's coming at the cost of long term neurological rebound effect. So with neurofeedback, it's actually getting to the very root of the issue on a biological level, helping the brain regulate itself in terms of the different brain waves. And it's going to slowly, the more you do it, kind of the brain exercising neuroplasticity, the neurons that fire together, wire together to common expression within neuroscience, which the more you train the brain to do something, the better and better it gets at being able to do that. So over the course of those ten weeks working together, he was able to greatly shift his brainwaves into a state that was much more conducive to focus and memory.
Speaker 3:And, yeah, saw really, really, incredible benefits.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. I love to hear that. And, you know, I'm it makes me think in terms of a lot of the people that are listening to this right now are, of course, interested in having a more mindful relationship with alcohol, which includes changing habits. And you know, you threw out earlier the concept of neuroplasticity. We also probably could talk about neurogenesis, but how relatable are some of the methods that you're using as it relates to habit change.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. When it comes to habits, I like to think of neuroplasticity with that ski slope analogy where the more-
Speaker 2:It's my favorite.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it makes sense in terms of when we're kids, we have this fresh blanket of snow, we're forging these new neural pathways, we're learning about how the world works. It's before we've developed maybe some of the bad habits or good habits.
Speaker 3:So when we become adults and we become more entrenched in our ways, when we think about people in general, when people start aging, when they get older- you
Speaker 2:know, they're usually tell what the slope analogy is if people haven't heard that because I think it paints a great picture.
Speaker 3:Yes. So basically that fresh blanket of snow, meaning that we have that neuroplasticity. So our brain being able to forge these new neural pathways, forge these new routes down the mountain, then we start going down those paths. We start thinking the same thoughts, doing the same behaviors. Those paths become deeper and deeper ruts.
Speaker 3:Now what neuroplasticity provides or neurogenesis, where we're able to actually grow new brain cells and new connections, is that fresh blanket of snow. So now we can suddenly see, you know, with a psychedelic experience or with doing neurofeedback, we can start being able to, you know, recondition our brain to perform differently and cause, you know, different, we can choose to start thinking different thoughts, taking different behaviors, and really going, you know, changing our habits. That's really how, you know, behavior change can take place. So that's really when people fall into issues, both mental health issues, oftentimes depression is that looping. People are thinking the same negative thoughts about themselves over and over and over, or things like, drinking, you know, where people are utilizing alcohol to calm and quiet their nervous system down.
Speaker 3:Then over time they're building a dependence. They're getting more and more dependent on it, and addicted. And then, you know, people are going to just pick up a drink and not even think about it. So really it's a matter of when you harness the brain's neuroplasticity, when you have that fresh blanket of snow, then instead of going down all of those previously ingrained ruts, you can now forge these new pathways.
Speaker 2:It's so true. And I've experienced it myself, especially, you know, you can get it from a number of different ways from exercise to learning new things, but also, like you mentioned, psychedelics. And I it comes to a whole another level with that, that I just felt that in that window when I was creating new habits, they were sticking and they were making new connections and the old ones were being unlearned basically. So on the top of of alcohol, you know, we're not here to demonize it. I think that everyone here just wants to be mindful of that.
Speaker 2:And part of being mindful is knowing about the concept of harm reduction and the things that we do. Just like the things we put in our body for fitness and food, I think, you know, it's okay to indulge, of course, knowing that a cupcake is not very good for you. It's okay to indulge on a glass of wine knowing that there might be some consequences. So just, you know, in the concept of science, can you talk a little bit about what goes on in the brain and even more specifically what goes on the brain the next day if there's a hangover?
Speaker 3:For sure. For sure. So alcohol, when we, when we think about it in terms of what's, what's going on in the brain, you know, you're getting this, this big increase in levels of GABA, which is our main inhibitory neurotransmitter. And then you're also getting a lot of decreases in glutamate, which is our main excitatory neurotransmitter. So alcohol has this double whammy kind of sedative effect where it's causing this, you know, this large increase in our inhibition and also decreasing our excitability.
Speaker 3:The problem though, you know, even though that could be in the short run really helpful, if someone's had a long day and, you know, just in order to relax, it's going to give them that, relaxed effect. But then the next day you're going to have this, rebound effect where now, because the brain's gotten the signal that it has enough GABA, you know, it's, it doesn't need to make more on its own. So it basically kicks up its production of glutamate, that excitatory neurotransmitter, which when in large quantities, glutamate can actually be neurotoxic. It can result in this process known as excitotoxicity, which can result in neurons actually dying when there's high glutamate levels. And then you're also going to plummet your GABA levels.
Speaker 3:So that's why all people oftentimes the next day after drinking, they might feel kind of anxious on edge difficulty, kind of calming their nervous system down is because their brains kind of trying to get back into homeostasis. And when this is something that is done on a repeated regular basis, then you start seeing the long term changes to people's kind of cognitive functioning where they're really having whatever issue that they're kind of trying to use alcohol to cope with such as anxiety. That anxiety oftentimes is getting worse and worse and worse because the brain has less ability to calm itself naturally and is going to become even more dependent on drinking in order to get there. So, you know, in terms of alcohol is just a tricky one when it comes to giving the brain desirable effect, giving people the desirable effects, but then also having this rebound effect. So I'm more of a fan of ways to increase GABA in ways that are not necessarily as dependence causing such as like kava.
Speaker 3:So kava is oftentimes an alternative to alcohol. It's a South Pacific Island beverage where they can Basically it stimulates those same GABA receptors that alcohol does, but in a way that doesn't cause dependence or any sort of habit formation. And people actually need less of it over time to get the same beneficial effects. So it has this reverse tolerance, ability, which is really unique, but that's something that I use with a lot of clients who may be struggling with alcohol or wanting to reduce or eliminate their consumption. I think it's, it's not a matter of like, don't do anything that's fun or good.
Speaker 3:You know, like what you're saying, eating a cupcake or even drinking a glass of wine, I think in moderation for most people, I think that's, that's fine. But when, when it does start to become a habit or people do start to notice problems going into the next day or with their work performance or just within their personal life, then I think shifting to something that is going to be able to give you some of those same relaxing effects that people are looking for with alcohol, but doing it in a way that is also going to be neuroprotective and beneficial for their long term brain health.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. I mean, can't just remove a long term habit and not replace it with something, especially something, you know, this is scientifically proven that something that has a reward attached to it. And, you know, the tricky thing about alcohol is that it has those physical things that you're talking about in that, you know, but from a habit standpoint, it's extremely efficient because most people, get a reward from a habit based on the likelihood of outcome. And so if they're if you're gonna have a drink, generally, you wanna feel good or have pleasure, or maybe you wanna remove, some sort of pain, whether it be a long day or depression or whatever, the likelihood that that drink will make you feel better is almost a %, you know, for the short term. And it'll remove the anxiety for the short term, but the long term, like you said, like physically and mentally, will have other kind of consequences.
Speaker 2:But the brain doesn't really think about it in that way. It's more on the short term when making those split decisions. And so I think it's it's really quite interesting to hear the science about what's going on in the brain, but also being just being mindful about your everyday habits. And also, can sit there and say, well, really want to drink, but this is, if you're in Sunnyside and you're using the app and you're saying, hey, today's gonna be a dry day and you're having difficulty, maybe you can be mindful of saying, okay, this is what's actually going on in my brain right now. And my brain's trying to trick me.
Speaker 2:So I'm gonna reward it with something else, replace it with something else and and that's how you really kind of unlearn habits and build new ones is by swapping them, you know? You know what I'm curious to know before I really want to get to your experiences for transformative, but one quick question is, I heard you talk about this. What's your thoughts on the, benefits or lack thereof as far as red wine?
Speaker 3:Of red wine. Yeah. I think a lot of people try justify the They want drinking to be healthy so badly or to have some kind of health benefits. But in reality, what people point to of the resveratrol, that's this longevity promoting compound that is contained in red wine, but in very minute quantities. So you'd actually have to drink like enough wine that would definitely kill you in order to just get like a therapeutic dosage of resveratrol that you could take as a supplement.
Speaker 3:You know, the, I guess the dose makes the poison, you know, both, both with, both with that as well as alcohol. But people are not going to be able to get enough of that beneficial compound that they need in order to have any sort of health benefits. So I know that there's been some studies that have found, I don't know, a glass of two of wine at night, you know, could be beneficial. I think there's a lot of confounding variables. I think evidence now pointing to even occasional kind of mild drinking can still lower blood flow and oxygen to the brain.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, unfortunately, even red wine, I don't think in my in my perspective or my view, I don't think really has too many too many of those health benefits. But just just to what just to kind of elaborate on on what you were just talking about in terms of with with a habit or with with addiction, it's not just substances. I mean, people, whatever is going to give you that dopamine release and give you that feeling of reward. So whether that's from alcohol, from sex, from gambling, all of these things, the reason they can become very addictive is because the brain gets kind of hijacked. I like to think of it as the brain becomes hijacked where it's putting all of its resources into getting, doing more, getting more of whatever was causing that pleasurable release of dopamine.
Speaker 3:Whereas the prefrontal cortex, that executive functioning, that part of our brain is thinking about the long term consequences. Oh, this isn't really beneficial for my health. I'm causing damage to my relationships, whatever it might be. So it's that area of the brain that really needs to step up and be able to curtail people from continuing to drink or continue to do some other addictive thing that's starting to become a habit because we can exercise conscious control or like what you're saying, kind of trick our brain by utilizing something else that's maybe a lesser evil in order to still regulate our nervous system without causing us harm to our physical or mental health.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No, that's great. And boy, I'd like to talk about dopamine if we had all day because it is really quite an interesting thing when it comes to habits, and I wrote quite extensively around it. One interesting concept was a study where people were deprived of water, and they were deprived of food. And these were individuals that were, probably at the, you know, AUD level, some years ago.
Speaker 2:So when they deprived them of water, or when they deprived them of food and then had smells of food around, it kind of lit up, like, in their brain, you know, for comparative speaking, like the size of a softball. And then when they did it for water and they hadn't drinking water for a day or two, you know, it lit up for, a basketball. And then when they showed them things around alcohol that they had, you know, either images or, you know, the smell of it, it lit up like a baseball field as far as, like, size comparison, which was really interesting. You know, they said that that could last up to two years, but then it did dissipate after that time. It's really interesting how dopamine and habits are directly tied and they can be lasting.
Speaker 2:But moving on to a more interesting story that I'd really like to hear about because I know it was transformational for you. Do you have time to share for a few minutes?
Speaker 3:Yeah, a couple of minutes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So set us up a little bit about what this experience was that was pivotal for you in your life. And, yeah, I really think people would be interested to hear this story.
Speaker 3:For sure. So really, as I was kind of going through that journey that I talked about earlier of kind of understanding and trying to kind of hack my own brain and improve my social anxiety, I was already doing neurofeedback. I was understanding and really harnessing my brain's neuroplasticity by doing that. But I still had, I think, a lot of kind of baggage that I didn't really even know was there. All of the past experiences of social rejection, failure, all of this conditioning where my mind was still very you know, kind of fearful of other people, fearful of expressing myself authentically or vulnerably.
Speaker 3:Really what helped me get to the root of that was an MDMA experience. So back this was when I first came to Florida when I was 21, and I'd never done any psychedelics prior to that. Never taken mushrooms, just smoked weed. And really, with this MDMA experience, I basically I there was one night, the first night I took it, it was just super euphoric, no social anxiety, felt like amazing. And then a few days after that, I took it again.
Speaker 3:And that second time, it was a completely different effect. So instead of having that euphoria, when it kicked in, I actually started to feel very trapped in my own head, in my own experience, and felt a lot of sensations within my body of anxiety and just awkwardness. It was all kind of coming to the surface. And I pulled my buddy aside. We went, it was kind of a quasi recreational.
Speaker 3:We were kind of at a house party. And I pulled my buddy aside. We go downstairs, we start talking. And then all of a sudden, hits me like a ton of bricks. I just blurred out that I feel like everyone's always judging me.
Speaker 3:And when I said that, it was like, that was like this cathartic release where I realized, you know, that was this, you know, all this pain resulting from that feeling, I was able to really get a lot of that out. I hadn't cried like that. I don't know in how long, but it was just this huge emotional release. And then after that, it was like I had this these, like, newfound, like, social abilities. Like, even that night after I had that, I was able to kinda process some of those negative emotions.
Speaker 3:I was
Speaker 2:finally in. Did you feel it physically and mentally at that that release? Like, because you said you were holding the anxiety in your body?
Speaker 3:For sure. For sure. It was and it was like a thing of what I know is kinda, like, had to bury down and try to always, like, stayed away from those physical or mental symptoms or experiences of that anxiety. Was like with the MDMA, it suddenly felt like it was okay to feel those things, even though it was maybe not extremely comfortable, but it wasn't I wasn't, avoiding it as much as normal. It was it was coming to the surface.
Speaker 3:I was able to process it. And when I did process it, I was like that night, I was able to look people, like, straight in the eye without feeling any sort of internal negative feeling or trying to avoid social situations. It was like this pure form of consciousness the way that I felt like I was experiencing the world with complete lack of social anxiety and actually feeling good about myself. And that was something that lasted. Even though the drug wore off, it was like the experience of that has always remained.
Speaker 3:Knowing that that was possible and how great that was to experience social interactions in that really amazing positive way, I think really was ingrained in my nervous system. And it taught me kind of what the destination could be, even though that I still had a lot of work to do and continue to do things like neuro feedback and, you know, working on optimizing my brain in other ways. But I was shown that like, okay, here's what's possible. Here's, here's what my life can look like if I'm able to really shed a lot of this social anxiety. So I think just having that experience, seeing what was possible then really set me out even more on this trajectory, you know, knowing that I just needed to figure out how to get my nervous system into that state without, you know, needing to to be on MDMA.
Speaker 3:So I think MDMA showed me the possibilities. And then with neurofeedback, with other, modalities, I was able to start training my brain to to get there on a more regular basis.
Speaker 2:That's just incredible, and I love hearing that story because I can just identify so much with the transformational benefits that some of these experiences provide. And by no means are we here just trying to promote it, but instead share experiences that we had on our journey along the way. And, you know, I think hearing your story just reinforces what I feel is that you can take some of these medicines with certain intentions, but I think that the medicine is gonna show you what you need to know. Because I had a similar experience in that I thought I wanted to work on these different elements in my life, but I had I had never done MBMA other than in college, which I don't even think that that counts, you know, twenty years ago when it wasn't really what it is today. And, you know, I I took the session.
Speaker 2:It was a guided session. You know, you're, into the music and you have the blindfold on. And what it did show me is that I needed to observe my relationship with my wife. And we, at that time, we weren't married. And actually it was quite rocky to the point of, you know, potential separation.
Speaker 2:And I did this one session and it, instead of working on these things that I wanted to work on, it told me, no. You need to work on these things. And it allows you to create a dip look through things in a different lens, you know, and create new connections and not necessarily take on problems head on and see, like you just said, the end goal that you want to get to and not necessarily go the same path that you would try to get there on a normal day of thinking. And, you know, just that one session changed everything for our relationship. A 80 degrees.
Speaker 2:That was over five years ago. We've since gotten married. We're very happy.
Speaker 3:We hardly ever
Speaker 2:argue beyond, you know, what's normal. And so I I just identify so much with your story there in that it just really can just change your life. If you decide to take what you received from it. Right? Like, you went and did all the hard work afterwards.
Speaker 2:Like, you definitely need to give yourself, and I think you probably do, give yourself the credit that you took you took that message and put it into motion. Because look, you're on this podcast, and you're, like, an amazing speaker.
Speaker 3:Right. Well, I mean, that's that's it's funny. I was, like, at at events and conferences, and I tell people my story. And, like, people don't believe at first that this was something that, you know, I I truly, you know, five, seven years ago, I could have never imagined being able to do do, you know, public speaking in the same way or, you know, just be be, you know, going up to strangers at different events. So, yeah, I think and it it's like I I think it's just like there's nothing there's nothing unique about my own situation.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's if it was if I was able to do it, you know, so can everyone else. And I think that's just some a lesson to learn with psychedelics where it's like it expands our mind what is possible. And like what you were saying, if you choose to take action and, you know, do the hard work, after those experiences, I think people, can really can really transform their lives.
Speaker 2:Right. A %. I'd so I know we're coming up on time. So I wanted to ask you, you know, probably quicker side question is, what either where do you see the future of what you're doing headed? Or maybe what are you most excited about?
Speaker 2:You know, I'll leave it to you to choose which one you wanna talk
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I mean, I think really helping get these tools in a lot of different people's hands, like really building a brand, a strong brand surrounding brain health, brain scans, neurofeedback training, making these things accessible to everyday people who are wanting to improve things like their focus, their stress resilience, their sleep memory, all of these things that people going back to what I'd said initially about how people oftentimes only really start thinking about their brain when things go really wrong. So I'm really working to shift that paradigm and get the get these technologies to people, who are struggling too, but also who are just looking to enhance their performance, who are looking for that leg up in terms of, their business, their their personal life, you know, and really want to improve and be able to harness these tools. So being able to apply the neuroscience. So that's what I really see my role as, is being able to be sort of the middle ground between the neuroscience research and neuroscience or psychology and being able to actually, apply that, to real people to benefit their lives.
Speaker 3:So I'm really excited to just continue building this thing out. And now with a course that I just filmed and really building up this virtual program, you know, I'm going to be able to, instead of just being confined to seeing people within South Florida, I can now really get these tools out to people nationwide or even worldwide. So just talking to different practitioners, some of which, you know, out of, out of the country places that there is no neuro feedback yet. So I'm really excited just to, to see how far I can really take this. I know for a fact that a lot of people who don't know that these technologies even exist, I know that they can really benefit.
Speaker 3:But how are they going to be able to get the benefits if they don't even know what these things are or what what it can do for them? So that's really why I'm going on these podcasts, why I'm working on building this brand is just to to spread awareness about what these things are and how they can help transform people's lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's just incredible. And I think your work is meaningful. And in it, I think one of the reasons I really like you is that I know that it comes from a good place of just helping inhaling people. So if people that are listening wanted to learn more about you or potentially reach out to you, what would be the best way for them to do that?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I would say best place on Instagram if they shoot me a DM. The Instagram account is neuroflex, n e u r o f l e x, on Instagram. Or if people have any questions that they'd like to email me, feel free to shoot me an email, tobyneuroflex. Tech.
Speaker 3:T E C H. That's my email. And yeah, I'm super open to just continuing the conversation. If any of the, any of your listeners have any questions, comments, thoughts about any of this stuff, I'd encourage people to reach out and be happy to happy to discuss working together.
Speaker 2:Toby, thanks so much for taking the time today.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, Mike. It it was a really fun time, being on, and I appreciate all of your insights and your questions. So this was fun.
Speaker 1:This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped hundreds of thousands of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 2020. And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30 in ninety days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking habits. It's not super restrictive, so if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week. If you could benefit from drinking a bit less and being more mindful of when and how much you drink, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial.
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