Mindfulness for People Who Don’t Meditate w/ Sonal Kalra
Welcome to Journey to the Sunny Side, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and of course, your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunny Side, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardinbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. Today, I'm joined by Sonal Kalra, founder of Connect Meditation and a teacher who blends Eastern wisdom with modern science.
Speaker 1:She grew up with meditation as part of everyday life in India, but it wasn't until the stress of business school and corporate HR that she realized how powerful it really was. Now she teaches trauma sensitive mindfulness to schools, companies, and communities. And what I love is how accessible she makes it. You don't have to be spiritual or in crisis to get value from this. In this episode, you'll learn how mindfulness can actually fit into your life, even if you've never meditated, and why slowing down might be the upgrade your nervous system's been waiting for.
Speaker 1:So, Nao, thanks so much for coming on today.
Speaker 2:Most welcome. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Of course. I'm excited for our conversation. So let's get into it. And you grew up in India Mhmm. And then later built a career in corporate HR.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:What first led you to explore meditation?
Speaker 2:So in India, a lot of fast get introduced or rather, they use those initiated into meditation, like when in childhood, not everybody, but a lot of us. So say for me, it's around the age of nine. So there's like a teacher or guru who can introduce you to how it's done. So he gives you a little mantra and tells you what's the process like. But I must confess, Mike, as a child, I wasn't very regular, more interested in playing and doing my own stuff.
Speaker 2:But I had to sit down. I used to sit down. But I think value that I had getting was when I went for my MBA, and this was after my undergraduate, to another city. And so I was away from my parents. So suddenly you have to fend for yourself, everything you look for small, small things.
Speaker 2:And that's when the value of being centered and especially an MBA is very grueling also in that set of extremely taxing. So that also helped me a lot in that time. And then, of course, it's been part of my adult life forever.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah. I mean, certainly, your upbringing gives you a new unique perspective because, obviously, as you know, that's not quite the standard here in The United States. So I I mean, luckily, I think looking towards eastern practices is becoming more and more normal, which is fortunate. Curious.
Speaker 1:Where in India did you grow up?
Speaker 2:Okay. So my father was in Indian air force. So we got transferred into the Force Air Force bases. Was born in Delhi, which is the capital of India. Then we went to West Bengal, which is the East Side of India, then went back to Delhi, then back then down south, then back to Delhi.
Speaker 2:And then finally, that's when my dad retired after a few years in Delhi itself.
Speaker 1:Got it. Got it. Well, in my late twenties, I had the opportunity after living in London to take three months somewhere, and I ended up flying into into India. We went into Mumbai first, then flew to Delhi, then flew back down to Mumbai, and then I did, trains and back packing for almost three months all the way to the Southern tip of India. And it was I mean, it's literally a different planet
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 1:Feels like as soon as we landed.
Speaker 2:Yes. Sometimes I feel like how could do such different of course, human values are the same. We all know what love feels like, kindness feels like. But, you know, in terms of norms and stuff, the look of the play, the feel of
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I love both
Speaker 1:of Even even the even when you land, it has a different smell. Just everything's different. Yeah?
Speaker 2:It's different. Very true. Very true. And I must tell you, Mumbai's I have done my MBA from a city near Mumbai called Pune. I don't know whether you had a chance to visit Pune.
Speaker 2:It's, like, three, four hours or something like from Mumbai.
Speaker 1:I don't think so. Not to my memory. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, it all kinda blurs.
Speaker 1:It's been a long time, and it it was a whirlwind. That's for sure. There are few key moments that I remember, but certainly, I mean, I loved the South Of India and the backwater tours in Karaleya and the tea field. It was amazing. Amazing experience.
Speaker 1:So if anybody's listening and has been thinking about it, I'd urge you to go ahead and go for it because it'll change your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you had a turning point that sort of motivated you to develop your own method of meditation called the Connect Meditation. Can you tell us what that is?
Speaker 2:Okay, so Connect meditation was the name of the organisation, which we teach a lot of techniques depending on the audience. So we guide meditation for groups and mindfulness groups in corporate and non corporate environments, also public schools, not for profit organizations. So depending on the setup of the audience is where we get in. So for example, if it's corporate, then it's more of breath techniques, more of mindfulness. If it's a community based group, then we can get into somatic EMDR, we could get into a lot of yoga based techniques.
Speaker 2:If it's a yoga festival, then we can get even more deeper into that. So depending on the audience, we do that. And of course, especially the deeper techniques, advanced techniques, we tend to, of course, get our own flavor because every teacher gets their own flavor. But the sense is typically what I think anybody would also know, those who are into this meditation.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's great. So, you know, it sounds like you're very mission driven and you're reaching a lot of different types of people. When you started out, who did you imagine would benefit the most from your work?
Speaker 2:Anyone who's suffering. But then what I realized very soon was that it also helped people who are not suffering go from good to great. So, you know, I remember there's this Richard Davidson at the University of Wisconsin. So the University of Wisconsin has given a lot of fantastic work they've done over the years in terms of trying to bring out why meditation works in terms of the science behind it. And they've thrown in a lot of monks from India, from Nepal, did some studies on them, what's happening inside their bodies as they meditate and stuff.
Speaker 2:And Richard Davidson had a conversation with the Dalai Lama. And the Dalai Lama said to Richard that, you know, you have to spread meditation and mindfulness. And the Dalai Lama always tells me 8,000,000,000 people, you know, that many people are there on planet Earth. So it has to reach as many people. So I just realized that, of course, I feel in my work, what I've noticed is that not everybody is open.
Speaker 2:And there are people who are also open to it. So if you're open to it, depending on the technique that you're comfortable with, it can. Because if we go can we go a little deep, Mike? So at the end of the day, of course, we do a lot of breath techniques, and we are all in the body or different ways, a mantra or different objects of meditation. But what we are practicing in mindfulness is the very simple definition, I can get is present moment nonjudgmental awareness.
Speaker 2:That's what you're practicing, whether it is in a sitting meditation or in your different techniques throughout the day. Now, what is that awareness? That awareness, according Easter wisdom traditions, is a large set. It compasses the body and is so much more. And that's who you are.
Speaker 2:I know it can sound a little bit abstract, but that's the, I think, the skill or the ability of these teachings to make it easier, relatable, as per where each person is. So if that is who we are getting into, whether we do mindfulness or any other way somatic EMDR, which is I feel pretty much mindfulness in that sense, whether sitting meditation, non sitting, if you are practicing something to the source of you and me, of all of us in that sense, then it can apply to anyone, whether you're suffering or you're not, but you want to go from here to even higher potential. Maybe that's why you have the athletes also adopting to it, or people who are already doing at a certain level, peak level, and then they want to go even further than that. But initially, when I started off, I felt that it would benefit people who are having some kind of pain, and that's where I started off.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, one of the interesting things that you said there is about people being open or not open and I think a lot of people are practicing mindfulness without even the awareness that they are and then they realize, oh, that's what it is. It's not this like woo woo thing that needs to be far out and so out of touch that I can't connect with that. Yeah. I mean, things that you just said there, being present, nonjudgmental, aware awareness. Those are things that we talk about here on the podcast all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And yes, of course, it's about mindful drinking but I don't think that people go right there like that's in this category that I just can't connect with. So, that's what I love about having these conversations is that it demystifies this thing that feels separate from us.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and, you know, you focus really a lot on trauma sensitive mindfulness. What does that mean in simple terms?
Speaker 2:So I'll give you a little example. So when you start off a session, of course, can have certain techniques, which are very like from the whole somatic area. But even if you don't look at the techniques, just the flavor of the session becomes different. For example, if I have to say, I would request you to close your eye. But some people, especially some people who have a lot of trauma, closing their eyes can actually be traumatic.
Speaker 2:And if you do not know that, then you might actually end up triggering that person in the class. So that's where I feel often trauma insensitive mindfulness helps, that everything is by choice, everything is by invitation. If supposing breath is not the thing which some people might actually during the pandemic, a lot of us develop respiratory problems. Now you're somebody like that in the class, and you say that, let's focus on our breath. Again, that person's not comfortable.
Speaker 2:So just being sensitive to where each person can be and then offering it. And then having a lot of resourcing initially. I feel that's so important, even even even when talking about somebody who may want to leave a particular, say, even you talk about mindful drinking. So, say, the person is at a place where it is not mindful and wants to be in a place like that. I feel that to do it just cold turkey would be so difficult.
Speaker 2:It can be done, but it would be so strenuous. Another way also which one could consider, which is that why don't we have resourcing? Do it in a more gentler way and then induce that slowly, slowly, so that finally we get to a place wherein it just seems like autopilot, you know, that mindful drinking. I feel so.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. No. That makes sense. And so is that sort of your approach also when it comes to addressing other difficult things like trauma?
Speaker 1:Yes. Is to ease into it?
Speaker 2:Yes. I I just feel so. In fact, in somatic EMDR, which we not be that's the teaching that sometimes even your sourcing might go on for a year. So for a year, we might not touch even those things which are traumatic because right now we need to build feelings. We need to get those vibration muscle.
Speaker 2:And then we go about to titrate a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, depending on each person's unique and beautiful path of least resistance.
Speaker 1:Yes. And, you know, what I find what I've been learning more and more in my own journey in these conversations is that our default always wants to run head on with things full speed. Right? And sometimes we don't even need to address that thing directly at all. Sometimes there's something else that we need to indirectly ease into, and then all of a sudden it starts clearing the path for the thing that we actually think is the real problem.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, just easing into things and looking for what you need to know, but creating a space that allows that, I think is incredible. And you mentioned somatic EMDR. So like, let's go beginner mode on this one. So first, and admittedly, you know, somatic, would hear for so long, but if somebody actually like hit me with a gossip question, what's somatic? I I actually probably wouldn't have a clear definition of that.
Speaker 1:So let's start with what's somatic and what's EMDR?
Speaker 2:Okay. So the way I look at it is somatic is soma, which soma means the body. Anything to do with the body. And the way I look at it is I think the mind and body are not really separate. What's happening in your mind has a corresponding neural correlate.
Speaker 2:Everything has sensation. And when you actually get mindful about it, you can actually I'm thinking this is what is happening in my body. Secondly, EMDR stands for eye movement desensitization reprocessing. Very simply put. So Francine Shapiro, who discovered it, who gave this to the world, found that one day when she was taking a walk, she was a little stressed about something, but after the walk, felt better, which a lot of us really, those of us who love walking.
Speaker 2:And she said, What's this happening? And she realized that her eyes would go from this place to this place to this place to this place, like when you're walking, typically your hands and, you know, everything bilateral movement is covering. And then that kind of made her think about something. And then she made this entire body a work around it, which is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. What happens is they're supposed to be at the midline in your body, so there's a left and the right side.
Speaker 2:Now, we don't know exactly why this happens. But when we tend to have anything which alternatively touches on either of these two sides, it tends to calm down your amygdala. And what is the amygdala? The amygdala can I give you a little detour? I'll just do a little hand brain model of the sorry, hand model of the brain.
Speaker 2:Okay, so have you heard of this hand model of the brain? Okay, lovely. So I'm honored that I'm going to the first one who's going to do that. I hope I do a good job. So this is given by Diane Siegel, who is a psychiatrist at UCLA, and he's also the executive director of the Mindsight Institute.
Speaker 2:And it's a beautiful way of putting these concepts into things that are easy to understand. I do these workshops, and I even look for schools, even schools as young as first graders get. That's the beauty of Dan Siegel, know, he tends to make it so palatable in that sense. So if I can invite you to just reach beneath your chair, stuck out there with glue is your hand. And if I can request you to take it out and show your hand to me like I'm showing mine to you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Now you can put it down like you're cooperating. Now you can look at my hand. What I'm going to do is I'm going to just fold my thumb and I'm going to fold the fingers here. Now this becomes a fist and this signifies our brain, the brain sitting inside for all of us inside our skull.
Speaker 2:The arm signifies the spinal cord, the brain and the spinal cord. The spinal cord is more like which relays messages from the brain to the body, body to the brain, It's the telephone between the mind and the brain. Sorry, the body and the brain. Now here, in this area, on your palm, is the brainstem. The brainstem is something which is responsible for all the automatic things that are happening in your body, like your breathing, heart is beating, etc.
Speaker 2:It also in turn, there's times of trauma or stress, or when you get scared. This brainstem is also responsible for how many messages come inside the brain from the body. In terms of trauma, it tends to let in a lot more information, because you don't what you'll need to survive in that sense. So we'll just come back in a little while. Now, the brain stem, along with this, the thumb signifies your limbic system, which is your amygdala and your hippocampus.
Speaker 2:This is responsible for your amygdala is something which is always scouting for danger. Is it safe out here? Is it dangerous out here? The moment it senses danger, it's going to set an alarm along with the brainstem. So if we can call the part which is in your palm and this the lower part of your brain, I mean, just for the sake of explaining, there's no lower and upper like that, but just for the sake of explaining.
Speaker 2:So this is your limbic system, and we'll come back to this in a minute. Now, I'm going to fold my fingers over my thumb. This is your cortex. So this is a wrinkly part of the brain. This makes all maps of the world.
Speaker 2:Now, do you see these two middle fingernails? So this is the area right behind your forehead, which is your prefrontal cortex. The prefrontal cortex is responsible for decision making, math skills, language skills, fact that you and I are able to understand each other. This is what is involved in that process. Kindness, empathy, compassion, intuition, impulse control.
Speaker 2:Sometimes when I'm angry, I may want to do something, but then I feel, listen, there will be worse consequences. I might as well not do that. That impulse control. This also does something else. Now I'm going to make a couple of expressions.
Speaker 2:Tell me what I'm thinking. Yeah. So I'm going to go like, what do you think I'm thinking? Exactly. Then I go like, what do you think I'm confused?
Speaker 2:Exactly. You can put them back on. Now this, your prefrontal cortex helped you get inside my nervous system, even though our bodies are separate. Yet it was able to get inside my nervous system, see what is happening inside. It microseconds it back into your body.
Speaker 2:You felt it in your body. It came back through your body, through the brain, through a place called the insula, into your prefrontal cortex, where you finally had this insight that, listen, this is what she's feeling. So prefrontal cortex is responsible for that. So now, if you see, this area is also close to the limbic system and the brainstem. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now, area is it integrates all of these, and information is coming from outside. And when there is integration in different centers of the brain, that means different areas are linked together, we call that integration. And according to a beautiful study done by the NIH, They have called Human Connectome Project, in which they have been studying the human brain and seeing what is responsible for resilience for well-being. And they found out that integration is the number one predictor for well-being and resilience. And they studied many thousands of people across a period of time.
Speaker 2:Now, when there's a lot of stress, trauma versus scared, there's a whole lot more information that gets let in from the body by the brainstem. And literally, have what he shows through his hand model of the brain. You flip your lid. Initially, just a little bit. You get a little irritated, a little irritated.
Speaker 2:And finally, one fine day, you flip your lid. You lose connection with the prefrontal cortex. At that point of time, that's why when somebody is angry, the person might actually say things and later on might feel like, what was I thinking? But the person have actually lost touch with his thinking part of his brain. And that particular point of time, if you go to the person and say, you know what?
Speaker 2:You should have positive thoughts. You should think good about the world. Person doesn't want to because he's lost part with this. That's when the body processes somatic experiencing. That can really help.
Speaker 2:So maybe a walk, maybe a massage, maybe a warm, relaxing bath. That could help. And once that tends to calm down, then do the mind processes also. Mindfulness has also been shown to come back to that the flipping of the lid comes back, and you again have integration back into that. Because in mindfulness, what we are doing is we are not thinking the thought, but we are aware of the thought.
Speaker 2:Can I give you a little story behind this? Sorry, if I'm if you want to ask Lovely. And if you have any questions, let me know in the middle. There is a story from the Himalayas. So there is a person who goes to a teacher who's supposed to be enlightened and says that I'm suffering.
Speaker 2:Please help me. So he says, Do you know if you're suffering? He says, Of course, I'm suffering. That's why I'll come to you. So he says, if you know your suffering, then you are the knower, and the suffering is the known.
Speaker 2:You are the seer, and the suffering is the seer. That means you are and this is the one thing. Or in Sanskrit, this is the language in which a lot of ancient texts in India have been written. You are the drishta and the suffering is the drishya. So do you see what the teacher is trying to do?
Speaker 2:The teacher is trying to bring a distance in between the thoughts and the awareness of the thoughts. So thoughts can change. The awareness is same. So right now, I might pick up, say, my meditation bell. There's an object in my awareness.
Speaker 2:I might pick up a Tibetan bowl, object in my awareness. I might pick up something else, a pen. Objects can change. Thoughts can change. But the awareness is the same.
Speaker 2:How do you quantify awareness? It's the same thing. And that awareness, which is separate the thought and the awareness, sorry, the known and the knower, the difference between the two that is what you're practicing in mindfulness. So this person says, Okay, I think about it. I'll come back to you.
Speaker 2:He goes back and contemplates over it. And he finally says, Yeah, there is a difference. He comes back and he says, I've understood what you wanted to say. I'm peaceful now. Immediately, the teacher said, You are not peaceful.
Speaker 2:You are the knower of your peace. Because what was happening to this person is he was falling into a trap, which many of us fall into on different topics in different areas of our life, which is we start identifying with our thoughts. And the moment you start identifying, I'm sad, I'm suffering. Now you are in trouble because now you are the one who's dream. But the moment you come to this, that there's a separate that this is the awareness and this is the thought.
Speaker 2:The cloud and the sky and the clouds. Analogy. So this is the sky clouds come and go. Awareness is still there. The thoughts come and go.
Speaker 2:Sensations in your body come and go. Images in your mind come and go. But this awareness is what you're practicing, the separation. And that's why when you go to a retreat, you might actually be very much Zen like. But when you come back into the routine, you are like, you know, test.
Speaker 2:So that's when just reminding yourself, just getting that mindfulness, whether it's mindful drinking, whether it's mindful running, anything in that sense, just this conversation. I mean, right now, I'm talking to Mike, but I can suddenly be thinking about the pizza that I ate yesterday or the friend that I'm going to meet tomorrow. And then my body is here, my clone. So just present moment, non judgment that says. But coming back to that, mindfulness can also help in this.
Speaker 2:But my suggestion is always like that's where body processes. So your body scans from the world of mindfulness. Those could also help. And of course, the somatic EMDR techniques also.
Speaker 1:That's the end of part one with Sonal. And I hope you're already seeing how mindfulness can be way more accessible and personal than it's often made out to be. In the next episode, we go deeper into how trauma and stress live in the body, what somatic really means, and how EMDR helps calm the nervous system and reconnect the parts of the brain that help us feel safe. It's one of the most down to earth explanations I've heard. And if you've ever felt stuck or reactive without knowing why, this next part might help it all make more sense.
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