Journey to the Sunnyside

Mike Hardenbrook: 00:00

Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside. I'm Mike Hardenbrook, and if you've ever felt stuck between overindulging and going completely sober, this one's for you. Today, I'm joined by Rosamund Dean, journalist and mom who literally wrote the book on mindful drinking. Mindful drinking, how cutting down can change your life. Rosamund was way ahead of the curve when she published this book back in 2017, and her insights are more relevant than ever.

Mike Hardenbrook: 00:27

In this episode, we're diving into her personal journey, what inspired her to make a change, and how mindful drinking transformed her life. Plus, she'll share actionable tips and strategies to help you take control of your drinking without feeling deprived. Rosamund, thank you so much for coming on today. It's great to have you here.

Rosamund Dean: 00:53

Thanks so much for having me. Delighted to be here.

Mike Hardenbrook: 00:56

So you literally wrote the book on mindful drinking. So I'm really excited to get into that and for you to share all your insights and what you've learned over the years because you published it in 2017. So there's been some time, and you were very early with this concept. But before we get into all those insights that you wanna share and actionable strategies, why don't you share a little bit about your background, your relationship with alcohol, and kinda what led up to you reaching this point to where you actually wanted to make a change, number 1, and then actually write a book?

Rosamund Dean: 01:27

Yeah. So I was a very normal British teenager in the nineties where I drank a lot of alcohol because it was a very boozy culture. You know, this was the era of Britpop and laddettes. And I don't know how much of that carried over to the US, but in the UK at least, every day in the newspapers, it was Kate Moss kind of falling out of a nightclub. And, to be kind of a hot mess was sort of cool.

Rosamund Dean: 01:57

So everybody drank a lot. I don't remember anybody ever talking about health concerns around drinking alcohol. And, you know, I had British parents who would who would always have wine with dinner. And from when we were teenagers, we would always have a glass of wine with dinner as well. And just kind of drinking every day was really, really normalized.

Rosamund Dean: 02:21

And then when I started working, I was a journalist, which obviously means lots of events, lots of press launches, events with free drinks, basically. So I drank a lot in my twenties as well. And it was really, I would say, in my thirties when I had kids that I I made a change. That was definitely the turning point.

Mike Hardenbrook: 02:45

Alright. So you reached this point where you decided to make a change. What was some of the internal dialogue that was going on? Since you never really gave it much thought before, now all of a sudden you're having this reconsideration. What were you thinking to yourself?

Rosamund Dean: 03:00

Yeah. So my son was born in 2014, and I remember when I was pregnant, I remember just feeling great because it was probably the first time in my life that I as an adult, in my adult life, that I'd socialized sober, and I I wasn't drinking. And it made me feel really good. I thought to myself, do you know what? When this baby's born, I'm going to carry on not drinking, and I'm gonna be a healthy, glowy, you know, alcohol free mom.

Rosamund Dean: 03:31

And, I had this whole vision of what life is going to be like. But it really is only when you're pregnant that you you are not under any pressure to drink, and people don't offer you drinks, and people don't expect you to drink, obviously, because you're pregnant. But then as soon as you've had the baby well, there are several things that happen. First of all, there's a sense that you don't want your friend to think that you've changed. You want them to think that you're, you know, you're still fun.

Rosamund Dean: 03:59

You're not gonna be boring now that you're a mum. So there's that determination to kind of, keep up that side of your personality. And there's also this whole new world of mom friends. So I would go go over in the afternoon when I was on maternity leave to hang out with new mom friends who all had babies, and we would always open to drinks and kind of get drunk together, like a bonding experience. And actually, I realized if anything, I was drinking more than ever.

Rosamund Dean: 04:32

And I was like, hang on. This is this is not what I planned. And that's when I realized that you can't just say that you're going to drink less alcohol and then it happens. You you really have to have a plan, a structure, idea of how you're going to do it because it doesn't. You can't rely on willpower alone because there are too many things that are gonna come up to disrupt.

Mike Hardenbrook: 04:57

A 100%. So one one comment I forgot to leave out is that I totally understand the Uzi culture in the UK after spending 2 years there. I didn't mention this before, but I not only did I study there, but I worked as a barman at a bar below the BBC. And so I saw how every every lunch hour, everybody would from the BBC would come down. All the journalists drink about 4 pints as quick as they could, go back up to their office.

Mike Hardenbrook: 05:27

I'd still be on my shift. They come back down and then usually close down the bar at the night. So I used to see it all the time. But, you know, one really interesting insight that you said there that I wanna dig into, which is, first, it's interesting interesting dynamic that, like, obviously, I can't speak from personal experience. But when you're pregnant, it's like it's totally taken off the table.

Mike Hardenbrook: 05:51

It's just probably just something that you can't think about, and then all of a sudden it returns. But it sounds to me, like, even though you didn't give it much thought, it wasn't like this big problematic thing, but you went through a period that you felt so great that you wanted to make a change. Am am I hearing that kinda correctly?

Rosamund Dean: 06:08

Yes. Absolutely. There was no rock bottom moment. There was no like, alcohol was not affecting my work or my relationships or anything like that. There was there was no big turning point in that way.

Rosamund Dean: 06:22

It was just that I realized I was drinking more than was probably healthy for me. And I I knew that I would feel better if I cut down, which I think is very, very normal and relatable. I think the vast majority of people feel like that. The kind of you know, you you you hear about the more dramatic stories, but that's not the reality for most people.

Mike Hardenbrook: 06:45

Yeah. Alcohol is an addictive substance, plus we have habits that are ingrained since we're young. And then all of a sudden, when you wanna change it, it's actually really hard. And just like you said, relying on willpower is not really a strategy, but then you're in this middle ground where you're like, where do you go? Because you're somebody like you.

Mike Hardenbrook: 07:08

You're like, I it wasn't really problematic, but I wanna change that. So, you know, me going to maybe a 12 step or something like that just doesn't line up. And so a lot of people for and I myself included, which is why I wrote the book and why you wrote your book is because all of a sudden, you found yourself in this no man's land with well, how do I change this? Even if it's not problematic, I it's still really difficult to change.

Rosamund Dean: 07:32

Exactly. And that's the thing because I think people that there is the sense that either you have an alcohol problem and you're an alcoholic and you need to treatment and you can never drink again, or you just have a normal relationship with alcohol and there's kind of no middle ground, whereas lots of people want to be able to drink less but just find it really, really hard. And one thing that I found when I was trying to drink less alcohol is that there are loads of books out there about sobriety, and they just didn't really speak to me because I didn't I didn't necessarily want to be completely sober. I didn't, for me, personally, I didn't like the idea that I could never have a glass of champagne at a wedding ever again or, you know, the occasional drink. I didn't it just seemed too final, and I think it was a bit the idea of sobriety was overwhelming for somebody for whom alcohol is so ingrained in so many of my life in terms of socializing, celebrating, commiserating.

Rosamund Dean: 08:39

It's it's it's a really important thing in in British culture, and I would say now I don't find the idea of sobriety scary at all. I could I'm I'm not completely sober. I still occasionally have a drink, but I could totally imagine being completely sober there. I think at that point in my life, I couldn't imagine it. But mindful drinking is almost like a gateway experience if, you know, if you want to work towards sobriety.

Rosamund Dean: 09:08

Not everyone does, but it it can be a really good way of working towards it.

Mike Hardenbrook: 09:14

Yeah. Starting with forever is really difficult for a lot of people. Now I'm not knocking it for the ones that wanna take that on at all. But for me, it was a a nonstarter. Like, if it was all or nothing, all upfront, I just couldn't get started with it.

Mike Hardenbrook: 09:30

And for a lot of people, I think that it's like you said, it's a gateway or, you know, I had doctor Andrew Tatarski on here who does harm reduction, and that's really the same principles. It's like, what what are some goals that we can get to towards working to something that basically reduces your harm or improves your habits a little bit?

Rosamund Dean: 09:49

It

Mike Hardenbrook: 09:49

doesn't have to be one giant bite all at once. You know?

Rosamund Dean: 09:53

Exactly. Exactly. And that's the thing, because I think if it is all or nothing, quite a lot of people will just choose all because, you know, he wants nothing. So, yeah. So I think it is good for there to be a a middle ground.

Mike Hardenbrook: 10:08

You went through this yourself, and you got to the point that you wrote the book. What was what was your biggest goal that you wanted to get across with writing the book?

Rosamund Dean: 10:18

I wanted people to I wanted people to realize that it doesn't have to be normal that every weekend you kind of feel crap. You know? I wanted people to know that there is a better way, and it is actually, Once you start doing it, it's one of those things that is like a virtuous circle. You know, you once you start realizing that you can drink less alcohol in a night out, it comes easier next time. And the more you do it, the easier it becomes.

Rosamund Dean: 10:50

And, you know, you you can just feel better and better. We really wanted people to see that that is a possibility because I think lots of people feel that there's there's no way they can change their behavior. So their friends wouldn't accept it or it just wouldn't work with their social life or their work situation. And, I really think it can, but it is just it's a case of starting and taking small steps and seeing what works and going from there rather than, like you say, that all or nothing approach, which I think doesn't work for everyone because if you feel like you've failed, then, you know, you just give up. And that's I think the whole point of mindful drinking is that if you if you slip up, if you slide off the wagon, then you have you drink more than you intended to, then you just learn from it and you think, you know, what happened on that occasion to make me drink more than I planned to?

Rosamund Dean: 11:46

And then I can be better prepared for that next time. And then just carry on. It's not like, oh, now you've ruined your streak of sobriety, and you've got to start again at 0, and it's like a disaster. It's not it's much more forgiving than.

Mike Hardenbrook: 12:00

I kinda think about it in terms of, like, other I try to draw parallels sometimes. Like, some people, their personalities match up with, like, I'm gonna train for a marathon, and I'm gonna start today. And they they go all in. They get a trainer. They start running.

Mike Hardenbrook: 12:15

They do everything that they can. And then some people are like, you know, I just wanna start jogging, and I wanna run a mile. And then maybe I'll run 2 miles. And then maybe, like, over time, they might not even realize that now they can, I think I can do 10 miles? And it's almost like what you just said here in that, like, the old you would have never thought, okay, going full sober is not is not something I would ever think about.

Rosamund Dean: 12:40

Exactly. Exactly. That's so true. And I think also that does chime with a cultural shift that we're seeing that more and more people are drinking less alcohol or choosing not to drink at all. And when I go out with friends now, there's almost always somebody who's not drinking or somebody who will have, you know, alcohol free cocktail at the start of the meal, but then maybe a glass of wine.

Rosamund Dean: 13:07

And it's just it's not that much of a big deal anymore. It's not like we're all drinking as much as we can in the shortest amount of time possible.

Mike Hardenbrook: 13:16

Oh, I so so I still wanna get into this a little bit. So you wrote the book in 2017, so that's about 8 years ago. What have you noticed since you wrote that? Because obviously, when you do something like that, you start probably the questions may have changed over time. So, like, what have you noticed since writing the book to now?

Rosamund Dean: 13:35

So I think there has been a huge shift in the cultural narrative around drinking. I mean, even even just in the last 10 years, if if you think about first of all, there's been a big cultural shift towards wellness and health and people being aware of the impact of their lifestyle choices on their body and wanting to kind of mitigate that impact where they can. And, obviously, alcohol has a huge impact, especially in terms of especially for women, I think, and in terms of causes of cancer. It's it's it's really high up there in terms of things that cause breast cancer. And I don't know the stats elsewhere, but in the UK, 1 in 7 women gets breast cancer.

Rosamund Dean: 14:20

So it's it's a really, really big risk because it's one all women should be trying to mitigate. So that's that's definitely a big incentive. I think there's a lot more awareness around that. But also the kind of cultural icons that people that we look up to, I feel like now they're a lot healthier than they used to be. So, you know and somebody like Kim Kardashian, who is obviously a huge star, is sober.

Rosamund Dean: 14:51

And, I mean, even Kate Moss is sober now, so it's sobriety is not a weird thing anymore. I do think when I was in my twenties, if a friend went on a date with a man and he was sober, we would be like, what's wrong with him? Like, is he an alcoholic? Does he does he have some kind of problem? Like, what's going on?

Rosamund Dean: 15:13

And I think that is not the conversation at all. No.

Mike Hardenbrook: 15:17

I think I remember saying really stupid things in, like, my early twenties, like, oh, he's not out drinking about this. I don't know if I trust that guy. You know, like, just like the most ridiculous things.

Rosamund Dean: 15:29

Exactly. Yeah. Same.

Mike Hardenbrook: 15:31

So you wrote the book on mindful drinking, and I heard a lot of different definitions for mindful drinking. What does mindful drinking mean to you?

Rosamund Dean: 15:42

So mindful drinking is really the opposite of mindless drinking. So mindless drinking would be, you know, the drinks that you kind of knock at a work event because you kind of feel awkward because you don't wanna chat to your colleague. Or, you know, after the after the first drink that you might enjoy, it's the ones after that that you're just having because you're drunk and you're you're just keeping drinking. It's it's all of the drinks that you don't necessarily drink with mindful awareness and enjoy them. So if you anybody who drinks knows this.

Rosamund Dean: 16:19

The first drink is always the nicest one, and then after about the third one, it like a kind of downward downward slope. So, yeah, it's really it's knowing when to stop. It's it's being aware of how you feel in a given situation and being aware of how you feel and how you will feel in the future and, when to stop it.

Mike Hardenbrook: 16:45

Yeah. I you know, I love that. That was kind of a a really light bulb moment for me when I realized and everyone listening, they they should probably experiment if they don't know exactly. There's a point if you take note where you feel as good as you're gonna get, and then everything else after that is just negative consequences. And I've caught myself and just said to myself, you know, that beer in the fridge seems pretty good right now, but this is as good as it's gonna get.

Mike Hardenbrook: 17:11

So let it go. You know what I mean?

Rosamund Dean: 17:13

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Mike Hardenbrook: 17:18

So you you emphasize the power of pausing before you have a drink to reflect on what you actually want. Why is that moment on reflection so important?

Rosamund Dean: 17:28

Well, it's it's so important and not just when it comes to drinking. I mean, if you can adopt a practice of mindfulness, then it's just gonna have an enormous impact in your life. And I know lots of people think, oh, mindfulness means meditation, and I can't I can't sit still and I can't calm my mind, and that's just meditation is not for me. But it doesn't necessarily have to be meditation at all. It literally just means having some time where it's kind of quiet and you're so don't constantly eat the radio on or podcast unless it's this one, while you're cooking or walking or anything like that.

Rosamund Dean: 18:11

You know? Just have take time to have those moments of quiet to give your brain some space to just be aware of your your body and and how you feel. I think having that awareness in life helps you make better choices in general, and obviously extends to what you choose to drink as well.

Mike Hardenbrook: 18:34

Yeah. I love that. That's great. Well, one of the other things that I wanna ask you, and this is a good perspective from from the other side of the ocean, which is how do you how do you deal with social situations when you're cutting back or taking a break that can get tricky? Because I know in the UK, alcohol is very much in culture and there you guys are very social over there too.

Mike Hardenbrook: 18:58

And so, yeah, what is your go to strategies around that?

Rosamund Dean: 19:04

So it's really about preparation. It's really knowing in advance. If you have a social occasion coming up, planning in advance if you're going to drink, how much you're going to drink, and what you're going to drink. So know where you're going, look at the menu beforehand, know what the alcohol free drinks options are, and think about who you're going to see as well. Because if you're gonna see your booziest friend who you know is almost definitely gonna be like, come on.

Rosamund Dean: 19:33

Just have a glass of wine, then, you know, think about how you're gonna approach that. Maybe just say yes to that person and have one glass of wine and sip it, and that can be your mindful drink, or, you know, plan what you're going to say to them. It it really is about preparation because otherwise, you turn up somewhere, everyone's getting their drinks in. It's yeah. You'll just go along with what everyone else is doing because it's the easiest thing and it's difficult to think on the spot.

Rosamund Dean: 20:03

So it's all about preparation. And, I would say it's so much easier than it was even 5 or 10 years ago because bars and restaurant have really responded to the fact that more and more people don't drink alcohol. I mean, there was a a survey in the news in the UK here yesterday saying nearly half of, I think it was 18 to 25 year olds, don't drink at all, and further half that they were reducing the amount they drink. I think pubs and bars and restaurants are responding to this by having more and more alcohol free spirits, 0% beers, even, drinks like kombucha or things that are a bit more healthy. Basically, drinks that feel like a grown drink.

Rosamund Dean: 20:52

You know? Because in the past, if you didn't want to drink alcohol, then you had to have, like, a tepid orange juice, diet Coke, or you you just felt like you're at the kids' table. Whereas now, you can have a drink that feels like a grown up drink, and that makes all the difference.

Mike Hardenbrook: 21:07

Yeah. I I love that part. Being in Spain here, they have a lot of nonalcoholic beer options all the time. And they even when I was here, like, in 2015, they did. I guess, I was talking to the, CEO of Athletic Brewing, and he said that there was some kind of national campaign for nonalcoholic beer in Spain for some reason.

Rosamund Dean: 21:28

Nice.

Mike Hardenbrook: 21:29

But I love it, because because my like, we'll go out to a cafe and or my wife will go to the butcher and they have a freezer there, and I always grab with, like, a nonalcoholic beer and just stand there on the corner and, like, you know, it's an anytime beer with no guilt and but you still feel like you're sort of partaking in that afternoon beer that's so customary in this area.

Rosamund Dean: 21:49

Yeah. Yeah. It's so nice. And because it is a beer and tastes like a beer, it feels like psychosomatic, you always get a little buzz from it as well. I think it it's so great now, all of all the drinks options that are on offer.

Mike Hardenbrook: 22:04

Well, this has been amazing. I wanna leave us leave it with you, leaving a little bit of piece of advice, which is if somebody's curious about mindful drinking, but maybe they're hesitant to take that first step, what would you say to them?

Rosamund Dean: 22:18

I would say to them, first of all, think about your why. What is the main reason that you want to drink less alcohol? So in my case, because I have had breast cancer, I don't want to get breast cancer again. So that's a really big incentive for me. But for someone else, it might be you know, they might want more energy, more concentration, improved memory.

Rosamund Dean: 22:42

It could be about extra disposable income, less anxiety, less skin, weight loss, better sleep. There are so many reasons. You basically have to find out what's most important to you and just keep that front and center of your mind because when you have your why in in focus, then, you know, we'll help you.

Mike Hardenbrook: 23:06

I couldn't agree more. It's so powerful. It's putting it in the positive too. You know? Instead of thinking, oh, I can't drink tonight tonight.

Mike Hardenbrook: 23:14

Drink tonight. I'm going to get this instead, and that's that's your anchor.

Rosamund Dean: 23:20

Exactly. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah.

Mike Hardenbrook: 23:23

Well, thank you so much for coming on today, for sharing your time and your knowledge and your experience, and this has been so good. If anybody wants to get a hold of you, what's a good place to do that?

Rosamund Dean: 23:33

So I'm on Instagram at rosomanddean, or I'm on subsack@rosomanddean.pubstack.com, where I do a newsletter on people healthy called well, well, well.

Mike Hardenbrook: 23:44

This podcast is brought to you by Sunny Side, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15 day trial.