Lessons from Men’s Work: Vulnerability and Growth for Everyone w/ Taylor Jacobson
Welcome to Journey to the Sunny Side, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and of course, inspire your own mindful drinking journey. In this episode, Taylor Jacobson and I explore the transformative power of building community and creating supportive spaces for personal growth. While rooted in men's work, the lessons Taylor shares about vulnerability, connection, and breaking through limiting beliefs are universal. This episode is packed with insights on how fostering meaningful relationships can lead to powerful breakthroughs for anyone. Alright.
Speaker 1:We're gonna get into more about personal growth, building habits and accountability. But you have your own background and you were you and I were just talking about your first men's group that you started. And I wanna know what made you want to explore men's work and what makes it uniquely impactful for your personal growth?
Speaker 2:I've been doing men's work in one form or another for about 15 years, and it has absolutely been one of the most effective things and just, like, changing my life very consistently over over that time. You know, the thing that first turned me on to men's work was an article I read about a men's group called the elephant. Truly, like, reach out to this author and and thank him. I read this article and, you know, at the time I was a struggling solopreneur in New York, you know, spending my savings on my rent and very stressed out. And I was talking about just a level of mutual vulnerability and support and accountability that just sounded like a dream to me as somebody who just felt very isolated and, like, I was failing.
Speaker 2:And so I made a list of run-in New York that I respected, that I admired, that ultimately I felt I wanna become more like these people. And I pitched them on this idea that, hey. Let's get together for a few hours every month in a very confidential setting, and let's talk about what we're dealing with. It could be work. It could be a relationship.
Speaker 2:And to my surprise, all of these guys, again, who are like I really looked up to, all of them said yes, which kinda looking back, I think, speaks to how much this is a need for for so many men. And so we started doing the sync where we would get together, and we would each share a check-in. You know? Here's what's been going on over the last month since I saw you guys. And if there is a topic that I'd like support on here, you know, here's what it is.
Speaker 2:And so we spend most of the you know, usually a 3 or 4 hour meeting. Spend most of the time digging into, you know, usually one issue per guy. And the structure and I, you know, I've I've done different styles of men's group, but they're all essentially this kind of support. One of the first things that it did to really transform my life was took aspects of my, you know, my life experience that I was ashamed of, that I felt bad about. And it gave me a place to bring them where perhaps in the past, I would have expected people to kind of recoil when I brought the these things.
Speaker 2:Hey. I'm struggling with this thing with my partner, whatever it is. Or I've been working on this thing in my business, and I have gotten zero results after 6 months. Kind of saying that, like, I would just I'd be too ashamed. I'd never wanna tell anybody because of what I thought it meant about me just being a failure overall that, you know, idiot.
Speaker 2:Instead of recoiling, I mean, men would just kind of dig in with me. Like, no adverse response whatsoever. Just, alright, let's get this thing out on the table and hear some questions. Let's, like, understand it better and unpack it and find some solutions. And doing that process over the course of months years, you start to break up these these beliefs that all these things are actually bad in the first place.
Speaker 2:Right? And so instead of letting these kind of core struggle kinda wither in the shadows where they would not get addressed, not get fixed, and continue to screw with my life, I was getting support with them. And, also, just breaking up the belief that there was anything wrong with me because these men that I grew to love in addition to, you know, respect and admire, they didn't think there was anything wrong with me. They were here they were there for And by the way, they did the you know, they participated in the exact same process where I was very clear that they had many things that, you know, they were struggling with. They also wanted my support with these things.
Speaker 2:And, so that that process is just, like, very, very healing through my psyche.
Speaker 1:I did one of these men's retreats once, and I it was the first time I did one. What I realized is that a lot of men in a group, there's some that may tend to posture themselves against others. Some may, be competitive, some be defensive just out of default. And it seems like it gives you a safe space to be with other men to be to be with whoever you need to be at that time, whether it's vulnerable, whether it's just to be able to talk about something. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, we're men do respond to the presence of women and women men, And there's a certain safety that could be created by having just men present. And then there's also, like you said, there's, you know, shared struggle that are unique to men. So yeah. I've I know I've personally really gotten a lot of value from from that environment.
Speaker 1:What what do you think it is about those environments that you get the most growth out of? Is it just being able to to be open and and get feedback? Is it to dig into the insights around your habits or emotions? Where do you where do you draw the most benefit from
Speaker 2:this? We could talk about a few ingredients that I think go into making these effective structures. And then and then what do you what do you bring to that structure? Safety is absolutely the most simple thing, you know, an environment where there's no judgment. And part of what creates safety is whatever you want to achieve, there's no judgment about that.
Speaker 2:Like, it's really up to you to decide what's right and wrong for your life. As soon as you introduce an element of you know, there's about judgment about your goals, and now you're no longer gonna feel safe to bring that. So, really, yeah, any form of of judgment about about anything really wanna try to keep that back and just focus on, like, okay. What what do you want? And what are you doing that either helping or hurting you achieving that in your relationship, in your business, in whatever?
Speaker 2:So that's the only one is what do you want, and how do we help you get it? We know what's getting in the way of that, your judgment. The second piece of the puzzle is challenge. Right? So once you have safety, then you can introduce challenging one another where, you know, I might if we're in a men's group together, I might see you, you know, 2, 3, 4, 5 months kind of like doing the same behavior, even though you're saying, like, you want this thing, you're actually doing that thing.
Speaker 2:And so we might know that on some level, but it also might be a little bit unconscious for you that you're, you know, you say you wanna hook a big fish in your business, but you're spending all your time counting, like, answering email. Something that's you know, you're not going out to the conference or trying to, you know, take the big swings to get in front of the big fish that you really wanna hook. And so, you know, challenging you to say, hey, Mike. I think you could probably stand to change, you know, change something up here, and finding a way to do that even when the stakes are really high. You know?
Speaker 2:And count, for example, when we're talking about relationship, you know, like, that is generally the most, like, intimate high stakes intense kind of content. But if you can cultivate enough safety and trust, then you can challenge each other even in the most intimate and kinda scary of domains. And then the third ingredient is is consistency. So, you know, retreats are great, but part of what makes men's works small groups work in my experience is there's this consistency of depth that keeps deepening or keeps building the trust, building the safety, but also build a lot of context. Right?
Speaker 2:So, like, I get more and more and more data points about your life where I can provide more and more value over time. And you also feel more seen. Like, there's somebody else out there or someone else's out there that have a level of context for your life, and it's not your therapist. People who, you know, they're kind of on some level, like, in the trenches there with you because month after month or week after week that you're connecting, they're getting the updates or you're hearing the situation. They know the stories as they're unfolding.
Speaker 2:And so they can engage at a level of detail with you in these situations that is kind of extraordinary, like, highly unusual all the lives of most people and most men. So that consistency of a of a huge factor as well. And then, you know, from that structure, how do you how do you get great results? I mean, you show up and you be vulnerable as you can be. Right?
Speaker 2:Both in terms of what you're sharing about what you're going through and in terms of what you permit yourself, say to another man about what he's going through, which is also can be very vulnerable.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that that was probably the hardest thing for me going to a group was to I'm a I've I tend to be an open book, but at the same time, I'm not like a big group person. And so doing that was a little bit challenging, but it was definitely rewarding. What would you say to somebody that maybe feels a little bit like what I just described that they feel like maybe something's lacking? Maybe they want some accountability or consistency, but they need to get over themselves a little bit to take that first step.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I well, first, I would just I would validate that it is uncommon to have environments and relationships where it's safe to really share. The typical level of maturity that you're gonna get from most of the people that you encounter in your life is is not is not really adequate to bring this kind of content. I mean, that's this is why, therapists go get a master's degree or a PhD or whatever. You know, part of what they need to learn is the skills of being nonjudgmental, being safe for other people.
Speaker 2:Right? So when I hear that you're you know, somebody is fighting with their their wife, I'm not freaking out. Right? I know how to just listen. I know how to not jump into fixing mode.
Speaker 2:I know how to say, great. Thanks for sharing. How can we support you? Instead of jumping into a story about a fight that I had with my partner. Right?
Speaker 2:Which is gonna leave that person feeling, like, invalidate. It's like, I just shared this thing because I want support, and now we're talking about your thing. Right? Like but that's so common. Right?
Speaker 2:People don't know what to do with other people's vulnerability. So in order to deal with their own discomfort Yeah. They tell a story or they try to fix it. Right? Those are probably the 2 biggest ones.
Speaker 2:I was trying to fix other people.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that
Speaker 1:You know, in my twenties, I I used to do stuff like that in my twenties because I thought I'd relate to the other person to say, I understand because I did this too, but then I realized that's not what they needed to hear.
Speaker 2:Totally. Unsolicited advice is like fame of humanity. So, yeah, this is a long way of saying, I would just validate your experience and say, yeah, we need to be discerning about who we are vulnerable vulnerable with. This is something Brene Brown talked about a lot. And you look for people that have maturity to not fix, to listen well, to bring curiosity.
Speaker 2:I mean, fundamentally, curiosity is probably the most valuable lens that somebody can bring. And as we develop that discernment about, you know, where it's safe to bring our stuff, then we can get some more momentum. But super important to surround, you know, to to choose the right people.
Speaker 1:Give me an example where you you did this and you're like, this works, you know, obviously with Focusmate, you know, you did that kind of test run where you and your friend were sitting on the computer and you're like, this works. And this is more it's it's the same. It's a person to person connection that'll keep you accountable, that'll be there and keep you on track, essentially. This seems like a longer version which with a deeper connection. But was there an example where you just were like, this is gonna make a difference?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'll I'll give you a a great example where this really changed my life. When I was first working on Focusmate, my business, I knew that I needed to raise I wanted to raise some money. I wanted to go down that that kind of approach. And I started to meet with investors, and it just it wasn't going well, basically. And so my men's group at the time, they were kinda watching me go through this process, and they were all like, this is a great idea.
Speaker 2:You got this. But in this particular meeting, what I brought was like, you know, what's going wrong here? Like, how can I be more successful pitching this to investors? And one of the guys in particular had this insight where he he said, I think you're being too honest. And what he went on to explain by that was I was giving a level of detail that made it clear how insignificant Focusmate was at the time, how little traction we had.
Speaker 2:I was kinda getting bogged down in these details, which, of course, for a business that's only a few months, you know, off the starting blocks, there's nothing impressive to show. You sure hit. And in our case, there wasn't. Right? Now to my mind, I thought we were doing fine.
Speaker 2:I you know, I was really excited about the data points that we were getting, but by going into all these honest detailed and, you know, context, I was kinda killing the big narrative. I was killing the more aspirational and inspiring version of the pitch, And he just challenged me. He was like, look, man. You have an enormous vision of what's possible with this business. And instead you're getting bogged down in all these weed in the name of honesty or authenticity.
Speaker 2:And he was like, screw that. Like, that's not gonna get both of those are both of those pitches might be equally true. Only one of them is gonna help these investors really connect with the possibility that's available here. They don't need to know all these details. Like, yeah, that the the details may be true, but that's not what they're here for.
Speaker 2:They're here to know if there's something really cool that they wanna be a part of. And so he yeah. He just like kinda blew my mind and and it was totally uncomfortable for me to adopt this other way of positioning myself and talk like really claiming owning this big vision. I thought only douchebags are talk only megalomaniacs talk about, you know, these big possibilities. But the truth was it that's what I saw.
Speaker 2:That's what I wanted. And I had this internal judgment about, you know, that that would make me a megalomaniac. So instead, I had my pitch be, like, you know, this kind of very boring detail oriented thing. So I changed my pitch, and I raised money. And, you know, here we are.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's a great one. Sell your dream so that people wanna join it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Process of you know, that's the process. It's like, these men are tracking your life at a level of detail over time and can then bring this kind of challenge to bear on any situation, you know, health, relationship, work, to challenge you to chain you know? Or, like, our lives are just made up of these behaviors that we do over and over and over and over. And we don't sometimes see ourselves as clearly as we think we do.
Speaker 2:And so somebody who's watching us or someones that are watching us can say, hey, man. How about this way instead of that way? I think you'll get a better result.
Speaker 1:So if anybody's listening right now and is kind of thinking this might be something that they wanna do, find a group where they they can continue to grow and maybe reach some new goals. Where's a good starting point? I know that there's so many out there, but you probably have a few good ideas.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, if you're in a major metro, you might be able to find a a men's group. You know? So, like, I'm in Boston now, and I got on some different WhatsApp groups for, you know, different activities. And I basically just networked and asked people passed around, and I was able to find a few a few men's groups here.
Speaker 2:You can also check out a couple of national or maybe even international organizations, Everyman and Mankind Project. Everyman, I think it's spelled e v r y m a n. They have a kind of a rubric of how they suggest running a men's group. So if you wanna start a men's group, you can just, like, take their structure and run with it. Mankind project have a very robust they have a lot of offerings and, you know, it can kind of if you, I think, join some of their entry level programming, you can learn a lot of the basics that can help you get off and running.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, folks can also reach out to me. Just connect with me on on LinkedIn, send me a DM. I'm happy to I'm happy to, you know, provide some pointers on if you wanna start your own group, how to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's great. If anybody's listening and they wanna reach out, what's the best place to find out?
Speaker 2:LinkedIn is definitely best. That's Taylor Jacobson. If you connect with me, just send like, include a little note because I get a lot of requests without a note, and I ignore them. But if you say, hey. I heard this podcast, and I'm interested in men's work.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Happy to connect with you and provide suggestion.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Taylor. This has been a lot of fun. I appreciate it. This podcast is brought you by Sunny Side, the number one alcohol moderation platform.
Speaker 1:And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15 day trial.
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