How the ClearLife Movement Can Change Your Drinking Habits w/ Cecily Mak
Hey there, welcome to Journey to the Sunny Side. I'm your host, Mike Hartenbrook, and today we've got an exciting episode for you. I'm joined with Cecily Mack, a writer, podcast host, co founder of Wisdom Ventures, and a mom of two. Cecily's journey into mindful living and personal transformation led her to create the CLEAR Life movement. CLEAR Life is about living without dimmers, those habits or behaviors that dull our experiences and keep us from being fully present.
Speaker 1:We're going to dive in with Cecily's personal story, her take on alcohol as a habit versus addiction, and how she's challenging traditional models of sobriety. So let's jump in right now with Cecily Mac. Cecily, first of all, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me. It's great to connect.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm excited to get into this one. So let's just jump in with your personal journey. Can you start by sharing a bit about your background and what led you to focus on mindful drinking and personal transformation?
Speaker 2:Sure thing. Well, first of all, none of this was planned. I did not design my life to be an author or a movement leader or even somebody of an opinion on this topic. It's one of those things that really grew out of personal experiences over the last decade.
Speaker 1:Well, let me just say that those are always the best ones.
Speaker 2:Right? I know. It's so true. One of my kids is asking me recently how long I how long I wanted to be an author, and I said, never. That wasn't my plan.
Speaker 2:So this really started because I lost my mother to esophageal cancer in 02/2011 after many years of her own battles with depression and alcohol use disorder and various flavors. And for about five years after losing her, I just continued in my own version of a life that actually wasn't that different from hers. I was not drinking myself into sleep every night or not functioning well in our culture or society. In fact, I was probably over functioning. I had a high caliber Silicon Valley Executive job and a couple kids and was teaching at a law school and, you know, this very fantastic looking life.
Speaker 2:But I was really out of touch with myself and really kind of living in this hamster wheel of activity and engagement. And in about late two thousand sixteen, my life started falling apart. And by mid seventeen, I realized I needed to conclude my marriage, which was really difficult. I still had my chin up and thought everything was fine, and I was just solving the next problem on the road map. But a friend suggested that maybe I take a thirty day break from my habits, which were daily in air quotes, social drinking and partying on weekends and whatnot, just to make sure that I was really clear headed in making the right decision at this really pivotal moment for our whole family.
Speaker 2:So I took a thirty day break in February, and it was pretty startling. That's why I very quickly noticed how much my life, physical health, mental health, relationships, career, sleep patterns, everything were affected by one, two, sometimes three drinks a night. And so I extended that thirty days to sixty and then 90, and then I dabbled a little bit in the end of seventeen just to see what it was like to have wine around the holidays and just confirmed that this was really not for me anymore. And so I took a bet. It was actually my own father who bet against me that I could do it.
Speaker 2:I decided to not drink or really take any intoxicants at all for all of 02/2018, And that was just a beautifully eye and heart opening experience. And I started writing about the journey of discovering what it was like to be a social professional engaged mom and human on the planet without these usual lubricants. I started diving into my family history to understand why this was such a deep pattern going back generations and started to try to capture what discoveries I was making along the way and how what I was learning might help others. That started my Instagram at ClearLifeJourney. I eventually wrote a book, and then a proposal for another book, which is the one that's in the birth canal now.
Speaker 2:And, that's how I came to do this work.
Speaker 1:Well, I love this story. And there's a few things that you said there. So you are high functioning. A lot of people think that if you have issues with alcohol, there's this sense of weakness a little bit, but actually people that tend to be high performing, high functioning, high achieving, to have more issues with alcohol and other substances. So, you know, I think that that aligns a lot.
Speaker 1:And I remember over ours over our email, one of the things that you said that kind of started all this was an experiment that you did. And that's exactly what happened with me. And started with this experiment, and you kind of didn't have this, you know, year ahead of you at first. First, it was thirty days, then it was sixty, then it was ninety. Along that point, a lot of the time I'll ask people, what was the point that you wanted to stop?
Speaker 1:But what was the point maybe in that journey of the thirty sixty, ninety one year that you were like, you know what? I'm not going back.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I've actually never said that. I tell myself every day, I'll drink again if I want to. I'll I'll do drugs again if I want to. I just am hyper aware of the fact that I make a choice every single day to live my life without this thing because the advantages of living without it, living in what I call a clearer life, are so significant that I can weigh an inclination or I I think I've had one or two times over the last seven years, a temptation to have a glass of wine while cooking dinner, and it's just such a clear no.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. So so it's been a little bit different for me that way. And I and I also wanna speak a little bit to what you what you said about high functioning people and how we tend to kinda categorize and stigmatize folks. I think that this is something that we really need to work on in our society and culture today is that we seem to divide drinkers into two camps. They're people who are alcoholics or have alcohol use disorder, and so they can't drink anymore.
Speaker 2:They're over there in that corner. And we we meet them with a little concern and worrisomeness. Right? When I first told people that I had stopped drinking or that I was taking a break, the most common response I heard was, oh, I didn't know you had a problem. So the assumption the assumption is that if you're not drinking, you have a problem because you can't control your desire to drink despite the negative consequences, which is how we define addiction.
Speaker 2:Now on the other end of the spectrum are people who, you know, maybe drink a little bit occasionally casually. No big deal. You know, those are kind of the champagne glass at a wedding a couple times a year, folks. And then I really am inviting a a a review, an open hearted mindedness to the huge number of people in the middle who are not once or twice a year drinkers. They're also not identified as having a severe addiction problem, but the tens of millions of us in this country alone who are examining and questioning our relationship with alcohol.
Speaker 2:There is no diagnosis needed. You don't need to slap a label on me or stigmatize me. I am making a conscious choice around whether or not I consume alcohol or not. And that's from a place of empowerment and agency and freedom, not from a place of surrender or failure or disease. And that's that's the really important place I think we need to bring more attention.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I mean, it's a reoccurring theme here that, first of all, it doesn't have to be a problem to wanna change. It's it's weird that we, as a society, are so programmed to think that if somebody doesn't drink, there's something wrong with them. And also, this was a challenge I had was that when I wanted to make a change, there was really nothing for this larger population of people that aren't gonna leave, you know, three fourths of a beer full on the table when they're done with dinner and leave the restaurant. And then there's, you know, the other spectrum where people are waking up at 3AM to have a drink.
Speaker 1:What about everything in the middle? And why does it have to be categorized? And if you're not one of those two, you're still in the normal category, or even what is normal?
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:I want to reel it back a little bit. So I asked you, what was the moment that you thought you were going to stick with it? Why don't we go back to the moment that you thought, you know what? I have observed some things that I think that transcended across a lot of other people, and I think I need to get this movement out, and I need to get it out of my head so that other people can understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's a beautiful question. I mean, I think, really, for me, it's been creating a space for people to explore their relationship with something without feeling like they have a lifetime label. And what that does is it opens the door for more people to examine and transform. And for me personally, it's in a lot of ways creating a space that I wish existed for my own mother.
Speaker 2:I think she had some awareness about her issues with alcohol for many years. I mean, decades, frankly. But the only path for her was into a detox or a rehab or an AA circle. And she was so opposed to those because she didn't self identify with that terminology, and so she never took a step forward. What I'm finding what I found for myself was that if we frame these changes as choices and we think about them as liberating and positive and transformative, it's a very different energy that you can you can move forward in a positive way without shame or secrecy.
Speaker 2:It's instead something that we can open up and be really inclusive and kind of frame more as an invitation. And that's really what the whole clear life effort has been about. I'm not I'm not labeling you. You don't need to say that you feel or are or behave a certain way to join in this conversation. You have a question within yourself, just like I did, around whether or not this is actually improving your life or taking away from your life.
Speaker 2:And let's explore how we wanna have that relationship with this thing. And for some people, it's, you know, cold turkey, I'm never gonna drink again. For some people, it's I just wanna change the way that I drink. I think this is actually something I love about what Sunnyside does, and it's something I see a lot in the ClearLife area. The, you know, the emphasis is on what are we doing, why are we doing it, how do we wanna continue to behave or not, And then equipping ourselves with tools to really be in the driver's seat and less passive about how we frame our days.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love that. And, you know, some of the things you said is that the existing options, like, let's say for your mom, the barrier was so high. So maybe that was, you know, getting in the way of her and so many other people. I know it was for me.
Speaker 1:Even if you could categorize yourself to be fitting for that group, maybe something about it doesn't speak to you doesn't relate to you, you know, the labels, like you said, labels, secrecy, shame. So I think you identified sort of like what a problem was that you wanted to solve for. And let's get into what that problem you solved for and how you did it with ClearLife. Tell us a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Again, I mean, I wish I could say that I had a great, you know, strategy, and I partnered with a business person. I thought through how this could all work, but it's been a beautifully organic and full of surprises and affirmations
Speaker 1:journey. I think if anything, that more legitimizes what you're doing.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I I really it started with me standing in my robe in my kitchen in my tiny rental in February and starting up an Instagram because I was finding so much support and encouragement from other voices on Instagram that were about an emerging fresh view of alcohol use.
Speaker 2:And I wanted to have my own voice there, but I wanted to have it anonymously. I was still a c level executive at a Silicon Valley company. I wasn't open about my choice to not drink in large part because I really didn't like that assumption that that meant I was an alcoholic, and I didn't want my colleagues to think I had an alcohol problem. So I started this sort of anonymous Instagram where I could post pictures and share some of my experiences around what I was discovering in this year clear. And through that, I realized there are many, many, many people who were experiencing something similar to what I was.
Speaker 2:And so these dialogues started in the social channels. And, really, there's a strong community around this time, 02/2018, '2 thousand '19. Holly Whitaker was writing her book, how to quit like a woman. Laura McCowen was also working on her first book, we are the luckiest. You know, Brene Brown had a couple online talks about her experiences not drinking.
Speaker 2:Glennon Doyle's Untamed was a bit of a sensation around that time, and she had finally spoken out publicly about her relationship with alcohol and later disordered eating. And there was just this kinda underground feeling community that was, you know, primarily women at that time coming together and sharing experiences. And so I continued with the Instagram. Later that year, I realized I wanted to write a book about my experience. I felt like my journey as both a daughter to my mother and then myself as a mother to my own sons and navigating a professional career that in many chapters had alcohol as a very important puzzle piece to deal making and relationship building.
Speaker 2:I was having to kinda reinvent the way I showed up in the world without alcohol throughout that period. So started writing, and it's really been very organic from there. The the book that I wrote was a memoir. It's, you know, almost 400 pages long, and it in great detail tells the story of that excavation exercise I did. I have chosen to not prioritize publishing that in the near term and instead, a different book, which is a little bit more about how to do this in a different way, which we can get to.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, my energy right now is really around staying connected with the community of people that are in this space, learning from people who show up to my monthly gatherings. We do one online and one in person, and really just staying curious about how we are collectively evolving our relationship with alcohol and other dimmers. So, yeah, that's where I'm.
Speaker 1:It's a great story. And I'm curious to know so what is Living Clear? You know, you have ClearLife as a brand. And Okay. What's it inclusive?
Speaker 1:Is it inclusive of people that want to eventually quit? Is it inclusive of people that want to moderate? Who's it for?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So one of the the foundational pieces of what I refer to as clear life is questioning why we do certain things. So do we reach for the glass or the smoke or the cupcake or the laptop because we are trying to avoid a discomfort or some ill feeling or some inclination to soften an edge, or are we reaching for that thing consciously with intention and and purpose and good reason? And many, many things can be used as a dimmer. This is what I how I refer to these things that we use to escape a bit.
Speaker 2:It could actually be an unhealthy relationship with exercise, food, sex, social media, generosity, perfectionism. The list goes on and on. And the notion of clear life is we can do all of these things, including for many people, have a healthy relationship with alcohol. But the moment that we are self dimming or self soothing or using one of these behaviors or substances to escape, we are out of clarity. We are we are in a different zone.
Speaker 2:And years of that behavior will go from casual use to abuse and ultimately some type of addiction or crisis for most people. So the invitation of clear life is really around developing a lot of awareness around choosing what we consume and why. And with that self awareness, with that mindfulness, having a healthier relationship with ourselves and what we allow into our lives and into our bodies.
Speaker 1:The clarity piece of that is so spot on as far as the brand goes, because I know, first of all, you have to get to your why. And if you're using this as a crutch because of certain reasons, you can't identify why and just continue down this path, you really don't have that clarity. And once you pull it away, I remember for me, I was never really much of a spiritual person. All of a sudden, this thing, this clarity is just coming into my life, because all of a sudden, I'm addressing the why I'm changing the habits. And then all these things that I never even expected start to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the beauty.
Speaker 1:So I want to get into a little bit more about sort of your philosophy. So there's a lot of conversations around alcohol, either as a habit or an addiction. From your perspective, what's the difference, and how should people be thinking about this?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I had this question in my own journey. I actually, three or four months into that year of 02/2018, popped my head up and said, oh, man. Wait. Was I an alcoholic?
Speaker 2:Am I an alcoholic? And I wanted to put some terminology around my experience because it was so life changing to remove this one thing. And I had seen my own mother's decline, so I had a lot of questions. And I actually did a ton of research and, you know, that was listening and reading and attending and talking, but I also found an addiction expert with whom I consulted on this exact question. And he gave me a framework which has been really helpful, which is most people with a relationship with alcohol are in some position on a spectrum from use, abuse, to addict.
Speaker 2:And when we talked through my positioning, my experience, he was very clear. Cecily, you were past the use stage because you were using alcohol to feel comfortable in social situations, in intimate situations. There were certain activities that you weren't comfortable doing without a drink or two. So you were in the abuse part of the spectrum. And if you continued within the abuse spectrum, given your family history, you probably would have ended up in the addicted end of the spectrum.
Speaker 2:So I'm so glad, Cecily, that you stopped when you did, and I hope you never drink again. That was the message. Yeah. And I I tend to I tend to see that a lot. It's it's not a perfect framework because there are many people who are not predisposed to an addiction to alcohol or really anything for that matter, and they could be a casual drinker that depends on alcohol for certain activities for their entire lives and never actually end up with an addiction problem.
Speaker 2:Then there are some people who very quickly can become addicted. And we hear a lot of these stories in the recovery circles. You know? I knew when I was 17 that I didn't wanna feel life without this special sauce. And so, you know, those are folks who kind of end up in an addiction conversation before they're even 25.
Speaker 2:So this is not a one size fits all approach. However, I really do think we have collectively neglected to offer sufficient support to people who are in that abuse middle area between occasional use and severe addiction. And that's really where I find myself connecting with folks because there is a curiosity. There is an internal inquiry. There is a little voice inside of our head saying, is this helping or hindering me?
Speaker 2:Is this something I wanna continue doing at the level I am for however many years? And then you add on top of that the heightened awareness around some of the health risks associated with alcohol these days, which are just finally emerging with much better clarity than we have ever seen. And people are starting to really wanna take control over a situation before it controls them. And that's that's the that's the area where I think we need to collectively spend a little bit more, focus and energy in supporting people in from a place of their own agency, changing a relationship that could become problematic but maybe isn't quite yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think, you know, one thing you said there is that you oh my god. Was I an alcoholic? I think everyone at some stage that wants to change whether you're wherever you are in the spectrum might question it. If they're looking for solutions of, okay, I'm actually having a little bit harder time doing this thirty day challenge or not having a drink on Friday, like I thought and start questioning that.
Speaker 1:But I think this is also leading into the next question around stigma. But I think we should normalize the fact that first of all, just asking that isn't abnormal, second of all, that we don't actually have to put a label on things. As you mentioned, this spectrum, there's that spectrum in the middle. We can't deny that alcohol is addictive. Doesn't mean that you're at the addicted level, but it's definitely gonna be the that's the level that's the hardest to address because you can't easily say, I'm addicted.
Speaker 1:So what are what are my options at this stage or at this spectrum?
Speaker 2:You mean when you're in the in between yous or addicted
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Arena? I mean, the options are keep doing what you're doing. Great. Or, you know, a lot of people are doing this thirty day dry or dry January or sober October just as an experiment to assess whether or not this has a grip on us as opposed to us just having a healthier relationship with something. Unfortunately, I think too many people complete a sober month or a sobriety goal of some kind and then think, oh, phew.
Speaker 2:I guess I'm not an alcoholic. I'll get back to drinking every day now. I mean, that's an interesting way to live life, you know, to each his own. I don't know that I I would wanna do that year over year until the year where it actually is impossible to go an entire thirty days without drinking, and then you actually realize you might have a physical problem, and then it's much harder to address it. I think the invitation is to maybe while you still have a fluid relationship with something and it's maybe difficult but not impossible to moderate or take breaks, you know, that's that's the time to really explore.
Speaker 2:And and I think as far as options out there, there are more and more all the time. I I think that this is an area of growing interest and fascination for folks, and different people are motivated by different things. I'm also seeing kind of an interesting gender differentiation and approaches. The women that I work with and speak with are really passionate about changing their relationship with alcohol because how opting out of drinking affects their appearance or their sleep quality or their relationships. I mean, those those are the drivers for women, whereas for men, it's a little bit more about, you know, performance and achievement and things that they can measure with their aura ring, like, you know, like, hitting goals numerically.
Speaker 2:So whatever your motivator is, I think to the extent that we can examine what what it is we wanna change and then decide what what is available to us to that end. It doesn't need any longer to be going into an addiction center or, walking into an AA meeting or, you know, getting into a a bigger conversation about recovering from substance abuse, it can really be a I am making a decision to live a healthier life for me, And so I am choosing to do this less and do that more. And one thing I would really encourage listeners to to embrace if you can is be more open about it than maybe I was able to be seven years ago. It's actually increasingly cool and socially sanctioned, even socially celebrated to demonstrate that we're making a choice to not do something because we're taking care of ourselves or more conscious about the impact of things we ingest on our families or our overall health. I think that that's you know, the more that people can be more open and honest about what they're doing and why, the less weird it is and the more safe it is for other people to enter into the space of self improvement or curious self inquiry or heightened attention and time on helpfulness.
Speaker 2:And the ripple effect of what you do might be much bigger than you think. It's something I've really noticed with my ClearLife work. My favorite emails and DMs and messages I receive from people are, I never thought about it as something that I could do that would be celebrated as a positive. I always thought it was something to be embarrassed about. And, Cecily, you're coming out and being open about your journey made me feel more comfortable about starting my own.
Speaker 2:So thank you for that. And we all have the ability to do that. We don't need to be writing a book or be on Instagram or on podcasts. It could be at the family dinner table at Thanksgiving. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not drinking tonight because I'm gonna run tomorrow morning. Or my eight year old told me he doesn't like talking to me after I've had a glass of wine, so I've chosen to lay off the sauce for, you know, an unknown period of time and just be really open about it. And you don't know what little seedling that plants in other people's minds. It might be awkward for a minute, but, hey, the more we can be ourselves, we invite other people to do the same.
Speaker 1:Yes. And thank goodness that it's getting a lot more accepted and normal because, you know, I'm thinking back as you're talking ten years ago when I would do sometimes I go to my think to myself, I'm I'm giving it up forever. And, you know, that's kind of like, wasn't gonna work on my own, just going willpower alone. And I'd say things like, you know, I'm just I'm doing a thirty day challenge with my coworkers when we're getting a beer or something like that. But I always remembered I'd have to find some good excuse.
Speaker 1:But that's starting to be removed. You know, that stigma is such was such a hurdle for people to get over. But you know, if people are still feeling that and you even felt it when you thought about doing your Instagram page. And I felt the same thing when I was starting to write my book. Was, you you're in a much more buttoned up industry than I am.
Speaker 1:But nonetheless, like the company actually liked us to write books. And I was writing a book, and I kept thinking, is this going to make me seem weak? And I asked a coworker and he said, get to writing. So that pushed me over the edge to actually do it. But I think that that stigma, especially, you know, I had already kind of been on that journey for a while.
Speaker 1:The new normal was now the normal. But if this is the new normal for some people, how do they do you have any tactics or suggestions for pushing back on any of those stigmas?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, one one thing I think is helpful for folks is to have in your back pocket a couple things you know you can easily say in those social settings where it's expected to that we're going to drink. And you have to adapt these to the right setting and circumstances, of course. But I've found that people actually don't care as much as we think they do.
Speaker 1:Yeah. They don't.
Speaker 2:We we can get so mental about what are they gonna think about me doing this instead of that. Honestly, like, they really don't care. There might be one or two people here and there. Like, come on, man. Join me for a beer.
Speaker 2:What's wrong with you? Like, Very rare. 99% of the time, people do not care. This actually was a topic that came up in my own podcast. I interviewed young Pueblo on his journey and relationship with alcohol and drugs.
Speaker 2:And I asked him, how does he handle this now? Because he and I, we've been through this similar timelines together. And he said, you know, I figured out the perfect response when people offer me a drink. Even if they're insisting I have a drink. Come on, man.
Speaker 2:Have a tequila shot with me. Very simple. I'm good right now. You don't need to explain yourself. You don't need to go into a big narrative about why you're not drinking or how long it's gonna be or are you in a challenge or whether or not you think alcohol is healthy.
Speaker 2:It is all especially not good conversation topic when that person is drinking and wants you to drink with them. You can just shut it down. Say, I'm good right now. Next, ask another question. Carry on the conversation.
Speaker 2:After a while, people really, really don't care what's in your glass compared to theirs. They just care that you're there. They wanna talk. It's nice to be out or sharing a meal or whatever you're doing. And the more that we can realize and internalize that and just move on, the faster they will too.
Speaker 2:So it takes a little practice, but it's it's a good one.
Speaker 1:It does take practice, and you might appreciate this. So I went through Techstars. I'm guessing you might know what Techstars is.
Speaker 2:What's that?
Speaker 1:You as a venture capitalist, you might we got a lot of coaching to go into boardrooms. And this reminds me of one of the coaching that they gave us. So if you get a direct question, answer it with a direct response. Don't ramble on. Don't overexplain it.
Speaker 1:Say the answer, and they would just do shut your mouth.
Speaker 2:Yep. Yep.
Speaker 1:Yep. So I think that explains it right there. You don't even have to go into the details. You can just say, I'm good. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, you have this thing called the eight awarenesses, and we're gonna get into this in the next episode. So I'm really excited about that. But can you give a sentence or two before we go today so that people can get a little bit of a preview?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So the aid awareness is is an approach to change your relationship with something that you're using as a dimmer. And it actually started when a few years ago, I took the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. I copied them off the website and put them into a Word document, and I started editing. And what I ended up with is a list of really kind of pocket sized mantras that we can refer to at different steps along our path of changing our relationship with something to remind us that we are the ones making the choices we make for good reasons.
Speaker 2:And it's really up to us to live our life from that place of agency and freedom and choice. So it's it's an exploration of that, and it's the subject of my upcoming book.
Speaker 1:Yes. So this is gonna be an exciting episode, so make sure you tune in for the next one. That wraps up this part of Journey to the Sunnyside. A huge thanks to Cecily Mack for sharing her journey and insights on the CLEAR Life movement. But we're just scratching the surface.
Speaker 1:In the next episode, we'll dig deeper into the eight awarenesses, Cecily's framework for transforming habits and living more intentionally. If today's episode got you thinking about your own habits, head on over to sunnyside.co and take our three minute quiz to learn more about how to live more mindfully. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram at JoinSunnyside for tips, success stories, and resources. If you've enjoyed today's episode, hit that subscribe button so you don't miss on any of our future updates. And until next time, keep moving forward towards a clear, more intentional life.
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