From Drinking as a Chore to Freedom w/ Sam Bail
Hey everyone and welcome back to Journey to the Sunnyside. I'm Mike Hardinbrook and today I've got Sam Bale, founder of Third Place Barre. Sam's journey is all about how drinking started to feel a little less fun and how she found freedom to step away from it all. We'll talk about the pivotal moments that led her to rethink her relationship with alcohol, how her friends and family reacted, and what it's been like to embrace a mindful alcohol free lifestyle. So whether you're thinking about cutting back or going alcohol free, Sam's got some great insights and a story to share.
Speaker 1:So let's get into it with Sam Bale. So first of all, Sam, great to have you on the show.
Speaker 2:Hey, Mike. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for taking the time to come in. So let's keep it to before you started to make the change. What did that look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm trying to keep it short. It's a long story that spans multiple decades. But basically, I'm from Germany originally, I started drinking legally when I was 16. I probably started drinking legally a little bit before that when I was 15. And it was pretty much just a normal part of my life.
Speaker 2:Even when I was, you know, sixteen seventeen. At parties, we would drink beer, we would sneak in some liquor, sometimes I would get pretty drunk. And, you know, occasionally, actually blackout and wake up with like really bad hangovers. And and, you know, I was Yeah, sixteen seventeen eighteen years old. So in hindsight, I'm 39 years old.
Speaker 2:Now, it's kind of crazy to think that I did that to myself and to my body when I was so young still. And I kind of just continued throughout, you know, college, grad school and everything. And then also, you know, getting a job in New York City moving here. It's a very work hard, play hard kind of culture. So just lots of, you know, drinking, socializing.
Speaker 2:And to me, for me drinking was never I would say it was never a problem necessarily. For me, it definitely did cause me a lot of problems. I never, you know, I never drank at home alone, for example, is the most boring thing ever. For me, I was always the party girl, the person who was just like, let's go out, let's get drinks. Let's do shots.
Speaker 2:So that was the bad one who'd always kept the shots for everyone. And it wasn't, it definitely felt like, you know, occasionally, especially when I was hungover or blacked out or had, you know, bad fights with friends or partners or anything, but kind of just the crap that happens when you when you drink, right? I definitely sometimes thought, oh, I'm gonna take a break for a little bit or, you know, I'm never gonna drink again. But it never occurred to me that I should stop drinking. That just never or that I should moderate or cut down in any way.
Speaker 2:Because to me, I never felt like it was an issue. I wasn't addicted. I was just it was just something like, oops, had a little too much, you know, maybe try and not do that again. And then it kind of just happened again. It's kind of fascinating how you can be so blind to something that is causing you so many issues when it's perfectly normalized.
Speaker 2:And, know, I worked for a tech startup for a very long time for several years. And it was not just normalized, but almost glamorized to be, you know, showing up the next morning after like a heavy night of partying with your coworker and be like, Oh, man, I'm so hungover, And still sort of powering through like, you know, a Friday
Speaker 1:beer on tap at the tech startup. Oh,
Speaker 2:had a kegerator anytime of the day. Well, for us, it was it was like the anytime after four or 04:30. Like those meetings, like the 05:00 meetings were definitely bureau clock meetings. Yeah, and like, you know, going out for karaoke and drinking with co workers and getting blackout drunk was kind of almost like a bonding sort of ritual. So it all seemed very normal to me.
Speaker 2:So I never even thought, oh, I should stop drinking or drink less. Just kind of seemed like, you know, the thing that comes with drinking. Sometimes it just happens. Sometimes it's a little too much, but whatever, this is fine. So that was kind of my story.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It sounds like the typical rebellious teenager, when you said like, I feel bad about it. Was like, boy, that sounds so much like my own journey. And everybody else's like, Oh, I did something stupid with alcohol when I was like 16 or 18 or whatever. I'm actually curious to know, because, you know, you bring a unique angle and that is growing up in Germany and, you know, Germany and The UK and a couple of other companies, countries in that region do have some issues with alcohol.
Speaker 1:I'd be curious to know just from a cultural and upbringing standpoint, now that you're here in The US, do you see any like noticeable differences?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great question. Because I haven't really lived in Germany for fifteen years. I've moved to New York ten years ago. So this might also all the changes of the differences that I see might also just be related to related to age. To me, I do feel like, you know, drinking, obviously, and drinking a lot is very, very normal in Germany and normalized, you know, beer is one of our, you know, staples in Germany.
Speaker 2:But for some reason, and again, I might also just be an age thing. I did not necessarily notice that alcohol was so much part of kind of our daily everyday lives and activities that we do as it is in The US in particular. So I always say like the examples like, you know, brunch, bottomless brunch, it's not a thing in Germany. Like people are like, why would you drink like that early in the morning? It does happen sometimes like Oktoberfest and like the the sausage breakfast during Oktoberfest like once a year, you know, like what once a year if you go if there's like a festival in town, that's like exception.
Speaker 2:Or if you're going to like a music festival, and you're camping and you're opening a beer tent in the morning, those those are kind of like normal. But yeah, bottomless brunch sip and paint any of these kinds of like booze cruises, things like that. That's not really a thing in Germany, like we, you know, we meet up for coffee, we meet up sure we meet up for drinks in the evening or drink when we go out. But a lot of other activities are not necessary don't necessarily come with, with alcohol. I think one of the things I also noticed is things like weddings, for example, where an open bar is kind of like, very, very standard here, not necessarily a thing in Germany, the whole like, oh, we have to have an open bar at the wedding and have to like, very, very, very drunk also, just not that common, interestingly.
Speaker 2:So for some reason, I do feel like even though drinking obviously is like very common and very normalized in Germany. It's sort of limited to specific events and specific activities compared to like, here. I remember the first time I went to a hairdresser, and they offered me a glass of wine. And I'm like, what, my hairdresser at home in Germany offers me, you know, water and coffee. And I why it's two in the afternoon.
Speaker 2:Why are you offering me a glass of wine? What's going on? So that is it it definitely seems like a lot more entrenched in the culture here and the expectation there's alcohol no matter what you do.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's interesting. It's not a huge surprise to me, because I've spent quite a bit of time living in Europe. But I think most people would guess the opposite. You know, just given the stereotypes in Oktoberfest and the festivals and that German beer is popular. So I love that you said that because it's like, Oh, no, maybe, you know, especially in NYC, maybe we're a little bit more boozy than over there.
Speaker 1:Or in specific occasions. So I want to go back to your story, however. So you're kind of saying something that is like very common is just, you know, at times maybe I was thinking about changing, but I didn't really take it all that seriously. I didn't give it that much thought. That's like kind of a common theme is just like, how often did you think about it or these behaviors that you ended up changing?
Speaker 1:Well, I didn't really, you know, I just kind of went mindlessly through it. So you said before, and I pulled this from one of your quotes is that drinking started to feel less like fun and more like a chore. So what were the key moments that made this shift clear to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially after two years of COVID sort of early twenty twenty two, I realized that I didn't want to spend time at home staring at my walls anymore. I just like, you know, after like all the lockdowns and all the back and forth on can we go outside? Can we not go outside social distancing, distancing and all that I just really wanted to be outside and I wanted to be surrounded by other people. I also had come out of, you know, not so great relationship. I was going through a breakup, and just started going on dates started just going out to bars, I was taking improv classes.
Speaker 2:If you've ever done improv after three hours of improv, you're so wired, and you're still switched on, you need to see no a little buffer before just going home and sitting in silence. So I would always go to my local bar, right by the subway station on the way home just to decompress for a couple of hours. And it was one of those moments after one of the classes, it was a Monday night, 10:00, I had my, was on my second or third tequila soda. And I just realized, I don't even want this drink. I'm only here because I want to be around people.
Speaker 2:And I want to kind of, you know, sit with something and decompress and maybe be surrounded by other people and not just go straight from like being switched on for three hours to my improv classes and laughing, crying, screaming, running around, whatever, to sitting in silence. And in the same way, you know, I would go to bars just to my neighborhood bar just to be around people. And I realized that I was already tired. I was, you know, both physically and mentally sort of tired of drinking and from drinking and and I just thought I don't actually want this drink. Like why why am I drinking?
Speaker 2:And then I started thinking, okay, what else can I do? Aside from going to a bar at this time of the night, 07:00, eight o'clock, nine o'clock at night, that offers a similar environment where I don't have to, you know, join the climbing gym or the another class or another group or whatever it is where I actually have to do something. And I realized there's nothing out there. There's absolutely nothing. There might be some twenty four hour diners, which are not always the most fun environment.
Speaker 2:There are basically no late night coffee shops in New York City anymore. There's really nowhere to go if you socialize if you go out with people if you want to meet up with someone or go on a date or whatever it is, after the coffee shops close, other than restaurants, of course, there's only bars. And that to me was really the moment when I was like, I'm tired of this. I want something else. And that's actually when I
Speaker 1:had you thought of that before? Or was this like the strongest moment? Or was it just like, poof,
Speaker 2:out of There had been some moments I love reading in public. Like I love just going out to bars, coffee shops, whatever it is, the library to read. So in the past, there have been moments where I wanted to, you know, I've been working all day, maybe even working from home all day. And I wanted to go somewhere just to like read my book, but not sit at home. And I realized, Oh, wait, there's nowhere to go.
Speaker 2:Where do I go? And so there had been moments like that, where I just wanted this, you know, third space or third place to go to where I could just be around people and not necessarily engage in drinking. But it had never been that focused on I do not want to drink, I don't want the alcohol, and I want something else. That was really the moment where I realized this is not great. I'm tired.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I sort of relate that there's this one story that I sort of remember. So I had been traveling a lot, and it was for study. So I didn't have a lot of opportunity to actually go out and have drinks. And then I landed in London.
Speaker 1:I was in London and I was going to go out on my own actually to just go and try and meet people. And so I had like three or four pregame drinks at the house, got on the bus. And I just remember thinking, I don't think I like this feeling right now. I had this debate in my head. I was like, Oh, no, no, no, like, I was like, early 20s.
Speaker 1:I'm like, that's not going to work. You know, if you want to keep being social, that's not going to work. And I unfortunately, I kind of just like pushed through that and just like, you know, shoved it aside and kept on my way. But I do remember that, like I had a similar thought. So I totally identify with that.
Speaker 1:So you have this kind of feeling at this bar after a couple of tequila drinks, and you're like, I want to keep socializing. But maybe I don't want to include alcohol or anything like that. What was like the first step that you're just like, I think I'm gonna leave this behind, but I'm gonna keep moving forward with, you know, being fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. So it took me after that moment, it took me another six months almost until November. I'm on a bus in Italy, funny enough, where I decided to take a break from drinking, I had been thinking about the concept of a third place like an alcohol free third place basis since that moment in early twenty twenty two. I definitely then went back to full on partying that summer, summer twenty twenty two was a lot of fun for sure. And as soon as it started getting colder, and I was also training for the New York City Marathon did a bunch of my long runs hungover, you know, training other other people do altitude training for the marathon.
Speaker 2:I did hungover training. And to be fair, I do not recommend this to anyone. But to be fair, running the actual marathon in hindsight felt nicer than a lot of my training runs. I'm just I'm just saying this is I
Speaker 1:I have been there done that is not the marathon, but I have definitely run. I
Speaker 2:don't recommend this approach to training. But it did work for me. And as part of marathon training, had already taken a few weeks off from drinking because I was like, obviously, you know, I want to be in top shape. And went back right after marathon, a friend of mine literally waited for me at the finish line with a beer. But somehow that whole experience, you know, everything coming together, just kind of set something in motion.
Speaker 2:And I started thinking about all those third spaces, alcohol free third places, started looking more into sobriety, non alcoholic drinks started listening to a lot of podcasts, because I'm, you know, I'm a fan of podcasts, and listen to a couple podcasts. And that was the first time in my life I really looked into sobriety. And I heard from sober people, that was never anything that they was so far removed from anything I was interested in. And I started listening to those podcasts. And I funny enough, like I heard one story of one of the hosts and I recognized recognized myself.
Speaker 2:And she said, Yeah, I you know, I could take it or leave it. I could quit drinking anytime. But then I would go back and it would always just not end well, or I would blackout. And funny enough, I recognize myself in it. And I thought, Oh, and she stopped drinking.
Speaker 2:So wait, maybe that's something I could try to. And so I did. And it's, it's funny, because I always say, you know, I create so much content. And I, my events are so open to people who are just mindful drinkers cutting down on drinking or sober curious. I always say I myself was never sober curious.
Speaker 2:I listened I was drinking I was on a trip to Italy, drinking a lot of wine while listening to all these sobriety podcasts during research. And then one day, I woke up and decided this is it, I'm going to stop drinking and see what happens. And then I did and I and I straight up just was like, I'm not drinking anymore, give it two or three months, you know, just for research purposes. And that, for some reason, I also, that kind of coincided with me also starting third place for or looking into the brand and everything. And I just like jumped right into non alcoholic drinks and the whole non alcoholic events industry.
Speaker 2:And, you know, that was late twenty twenty two. So it was absence of proofs just started hosting events and heck out the silver bar in the East Village here in New York City just opened. So it was a perfect time for me. And I just honestly like and I'm not sure that is necessarily, you know, very applicable to everyone who quits drinking. But for me, just diving right into the whole industry into non alcoholic drinks, going to the silver bars, making connections, meeting people there, That was such a exciting and new community to me, that I it almost it feels like it buffered the fall kind of like cutting out drinking.
Speaker 2:So that was the one thing I did. And then the other thing I did is also funny enough, I have a couple of friends who don't drink. You know, my friend Josh, he's straight edge. He's never had a drink in his life, just never been interested in. So I just started hanging out with him a little bit more going to concerts and everything.
Speaker 2:And just having someone who's like, Yeah, of course, I'm not drinking. And that was also really, really helpful to just surround myself with people who wouldn't even necessarily question it.
Speaker 1:There's so many things there that you said that I'd love to get into. And you know, the first point is, is like how you started and you said, like, took two to three months off, kind of, as research, I think that's what you said or, some of the biggest transformations kind of start out with this, I'm going to try and experiment, however you want to say it. But that's kind of what happened to me. I went thirty, then sixty, then ninety days. Then I went like just about a year and everything sort of changed over time when I just did these experience or experiments.
Speaker 1:Same with like, lot of people using Sunnyside and the harm reduction approach of just like, I'm going to do an experiment, maybe I'm going to reduce maybe I'm to cut back the number of days. I love that, that your story unfolded, starting with sort of this experiment in this conversation that you had with yourself. But what I'm really interested in, it's unique, and I don't know if it's unique to you, and or if maybe it's unique to maybe the generation that is coming up that you're in, but I find that it is interesting that you started to think about these third places as you call them. Why do you think you were gravitated to that so early?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I just think that to me, bars were always their places. I am very big on neighborhood community. Lived in, I lived in England for five years. And I was running a community group there. Basically, we had a great third space called Mad Lab Manchester Digital Laboratory, which is a community space hack space, so many events where you could just stop by and get a cup of tea there.
Speaker 2:And for me, that is just very much, I don't know how to say it part of my identity almost to be part of the community and be a community builder in that community too. And for me, in order to feel connected in order to really feel happy and satisfied and content with, you know, how I live my life. I have to be connected with my community around me, I have to be connected with my neighborhood. And, you know, in absence of community spaces, or many community spaces in New York City to me, all my neighborhood bar was my third place. It was my community space.
Speaker 2:I celebrated my birthday there. I knew all the bartenders, I knew their shifts, I would stop by just to say hi. And you know, I would take dates there. It was just my extended living room and kind of my extended family. Also, as someone who, you know, moved from Germany, to England, and then from England to New York City, I'm always, you know, meeting new people building new sort of families for myself and new new groups of friends and new communities.
Speaker 2:And the physicality of third space, like an actual physical place is very, very important, I think in community building, and then, you know, being able to form a community. So I think that's just where that came from. It's just like a general interest in like, very deep, you know, rooted desire as part of my whole life and my personality is to have those third spaces and feel rooted in my community and feel connected with the people around me.
Speaker 1:I love that. So do you think that, you were listening to all these podcasts, you're making the change? Was it more rooted in this is who I am, I am a social being, and I like going out and I'm in these cities that are very social and there's community there. Or did you sort of also realize that community if you're going to make this change was integral to kind of the long term strategy for you? Or was it both?
Speaker 2:I would say definitely the former. Because again, like I had never set out to necessarily quit drinking for good. Even now I'm almost two years in and I'm still saying even I highly doubt I'm gonna start drinking again. But it was never the goal to quit drinking for good. It just happened.
Speaker 2:You know, I always say that it just feels so good. Why would I go back to doing doing a differently? So it's I think for me, he was really the community aspect and also just sharing the benefits and providing a space for other people rather than it being about my own sobriety.
Speaker 1:So you're basically like, I'm going keep doing what I'm doing and all the things that I love. I'm just going to remove this one little component. So I love that. What do you think was and we're going to get into the third bar and we're going to talk about all that and I can't wait to get into that. But before we do, I want to talk real quick is what do you think was the biggest challenge?
Speaker 1:So, you know, I'm going to remove all, I'm going to remove this one component, but I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. What was your did you have any challenges to start?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always say I'm a little bit of a freak case, because it was so easy for me again, I jumped right into the whole community, the industry, the non alc industry, I spent time with, you know, friends of mine who were already not drinking, which actually made me feel better to be not drinking around them. Whereas previously, it was always a little awkward if I had a drink and they weren't drinking. So that was actually nicer to connect with them.
Speaker 1:Haven't Isn't that funny? And now you're on the other side.
Speaker 2:I know, I know. Now everyone feels they're awkward around me. Now, I think one of the challenges is definitely just, you know, there's been a lot of when you're sober twenty four hours a day, for months, or at this point years, there's a lot of realizations and a lot you learn about yourself. And that's something that, you know, has been I'm again, I'm 39 years old, there's been a lot that I learned about myself that I'm maybe could have learned twenty years ago, or fifteen years ago, if I hadn't been drinking. And I think just dealing with that, and sitting with that and understanding, oh, this is who I am.
Speaker 2:This is who I am in a social situation, like I can be awkward. Interesting. So those those things are definitely, you know, but but they're they're small bumps. And to some extent, also like interesting and exciting. Again, this is all I'm doing is all for research.
Speaker 2:I'm still in the research.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then also at the same time, have to be completely honest, I do like the taste of alcohol. And I do like alcoholic drinks, cocktails, wine, beer just for the taste. Because there's so many, you have a lot more options. Just from a culinary perspective. When you include alcohol, it's just the same as you know, you have more options to make food or different dishes when you include meat or dairy or animal product, or gluten or whatever it is, right?
Speaker 2:Like, the the fact that you don't drink just kind of reduces the number of things you could be potentially drinking or enjoying. If I could make, like wave a magic wand and have the exact same drinks that I see on amazing incredible cocktail menus just without the effect of alcohol, I would totally have them. I love the taste. That's one thing that that was a little bit challenging for me. And complete disclaimer, you know, I still take sips of alcohol.
Speaker 2:Just because I do develop non alcoholic cocktails, I review non alcoholic wines all the time, I teach wine tasting classes, non alcoholic wine tasting classes. Those are all things where, to me, I feel like I need to stay fresh. So I have tiny little sips of alcohol. But never more than one sip because I do not want to feel the effect of it. So I get a little bit of that.
Speaker 2:So I'm micro dosing the taste. Yeah,
Speaker 1:Flipping that trending word. Yeah, exactly. I'm right there with you. I mean, on days that I'm not drinking, if I have a sip of my wife's margarita, because it looks really, like, interesting. I don't think that that counts really.
Speaker 1:But I'm okay with that. No. So one thing before we go that I want to get into is that so you made this change and you're finding a different community to be around. But you did mention like, you know, maybe I can be awkward or uncomfortable at times. Was that a challenge for you?
Speaker 1:Was that something that maybe you thought that the drinking was like, maybe making it easier for you to deal with? Then so you sounds like you just embraced it and move forward and just enjoyed a different way to enjoy yourself while you're out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so interesting to learn that about myself because I'm anyone who knows me will say I'm a total extrovert. You know, I'm always out
Speaker 1:of my It's probably all in your head. Because I'm like, yeah, I doubt that she's actually any of those things that she just said. But you know, whatever we feel is what our truth is anyways.
Speaker 2:Have moments when I go to events where I feel really awkward. And I do not want to talk to people. And it really, you know, takes me a lot or I try and make conversation, I feel incredibly self conscious. And I just leave like that happens. People don't notice how, how challenging social interaction for me actually is, I am constantly questioning myself, I am constantly, you know, ruminating about things that I said that something that I might have said wrong, or even just like someone's facial expression.
Speaker 2:You know, I sometimes I notice someone just like, hesitating or looking at me in some way. And I will worry about that for the entire next twenty four hours. What did I do? What did I say? Even though they were maybe just, they realized they forgot to buy milk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's things like that. So I so you know, given that, you know, I host events, I'm very outgoing, I have a I project well, I have a fairly loud voice. I'm German, I'm pretty direct people, people do think that I'm, you know, super extroverted, super confident and everything. But there's a lot of work that goes into that as there's a lot of work that actually goes into, you know, me being so outgoing or, know, hosting events on days when I'm really not feeling it and trying to make myself social. So that yeah, that was definitely something I noticed.
Speaker 2:And I'm also like, what's the worst that can happen? I don't I don't believe I have, you know, severe social anxiety. I don't have any physical issues that come from it. Don't have any. I always say and this is I used to teach coding classes and like soldering workshops and stuff to little kids like little girls.
Speaker 2:And I always said, what's the worst that can happen? Just try it out, right? And that's sort of like, really one of my mottos in my life, you know, what's the worst that can happen? And I think as a runner, you know, you maybe I always compare it to when you run and you notice you're you're hurting, you're aching, you're winded, everything sucks. But you know, when something is normal, because you're just exhausted, and when something is actually wrong, like, oh, there's something in my knee that I'm feeling that I need to pay attention to, you know, when you're in tune with your body as a runner.
Speaker 2:And I think in the same way, when you're in tune with yourself, as someone who doesn't drink or is very mindful about their drinking, You know, when something is like, Oh, I have to get out of this situation, or okay, I'm just uncomfortable, because I'm socially awkward right now. And that's normal, because we're humans, like which human, you know, it's natural and normal and healthy as a human to be not just going up to strangers all time and making friends with them. You know, there's a little bit of like, evolution made us this way. So sorry, that was a very long winded answer to say like, yes, it is challenging, I'm working on it. But I'm also like, fully aware that what could go wrong?
Speaker 2:What could happen? What's the
Speaker 1:worst that could happen? You know what? I love to end it there because I actually I'll share that. I say that all the time, especially when you're thinking about, oh, you know, I don't know if I want to ask that person to probably gonna say no, and, or maybe I'm going to try this and it won't work out, but it's like, what's the worst that can happen? You just end up exactly where you are right now, so you might as well try.
Speaker 2:Yep. A %.
Speaker 1:So, okay. I can't wait to talk about the third place in the next episode. Can you give us a little preview of what the name third place means?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. So a third place is any place outside of work or home, which is your second and your first place, where you foster social connection. And that's sort of what I'm aiming to do with the events that I'm hosting.
Speaker 1:That wraps up today's episode of Journey to the Sunnyside. Huge thanks to Sam Bale for sharing her journey on showing us how being mindful with your drinking or going alcohol free can open up so much freedom. Don't miss the next episode where Sam will be back to dive into the mental health benefits of socializing without alcohol. Trust me, you don't wanna miss out on that one. And if today's episode got you thinking about your own habits, head on over to sunnyside.co and take our three minute quiz to get personalized insights into your drinking habits.
Speaker 1:And don't forget to follow us on Instagram at join sunnyside for more daily tips, inspiration, and success stories. And if you liked what you heard, hit that subscribe button so you don't miss out on any future episodes. And until next time, cheers to your mindful drinking journey.
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