Find Your Drinking Archetype for Lasting Change w/ Rachel Hart
Hey there, and welcome back to Journey to the Sunnyside. I'm Mike Hardenbrook. And today, we're diving into a topic that hits home for so many mindful drinkers, understanding a more personalized plan for our own habits. I'm super excited to be joined with Rachel Hart, coach, author, and host of Take a Break podcast. Rachel's all about helping people change their relationship with alcohol without relying on willpower or feeling deprived.
Speaker 1:She's developed a framework for understanding different drink archetypes, and we're gonna unpack all that today. Rachel has guided thousands of people towards rethinking their habits and making lasting change. And if you're looking for a game changing approach to your mindful drinking journey, this is it. So let's jump in with Rachel Hart. Rachel, thanks for coming on today.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Well, you're all about helping people change their relationship with alcohol, but there's always an origin story to this. So can you share a little bit about your story with alcohol and how everything came about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, I started drinking when I went to college. I was 17. And I definitely was like, oh, like, this is amazing. Like, this is how I go to a party, and I don't feel, you know, insecure.
Speaker 2:And I'm just confident and outgoing. And so I definitely, from the outset, really I really enjoyed drinking. I also started to have a little bit of a love hate relationship with it. But, you know, for me, it was college. It was that kind of thing where it's like, okay.
Speaker 2:It's fine. You know, you're young. You can be kind of, like, messy and sloppy sometimes. It's not a big deal. And, you know, after college, I moved to New York, and I started I I started kind of worrying more.
Speaker 2:I started kinda feeling like, Okay. Maybe the behaviors in college that were funny and fun are maybe not so great as you're trying to, you know, become a professional and become like a real adult and live in the city. And so I I knew that I wanted to change my drinking, and I felt very stuck on how to go about doing that. I really didn't feel like at that time there was you know, I'm in my forties now. I didn't feel like there was a lot of guidance out there other than kind of like, well, if you have a problem, you should go to AA, which didn't seem like the right fit for me.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, I really was in a place for so long of just just kind of like groping, like, feeling like, you know, I was in the dark, kind of feeling like I was in no man's land, like nobody could relate. And I also I really didn't want, like, talking about it with people. I had a lot of shame around it, and I and I also just felt confused because I didn't always go overboard. I didn't always overdo it. Like, there was a component to my drinking that just, like, didn't make sense to me.
Speaker 2:It didn't make sense why sometimes I would go out with friends and, you know, we'd have a couple drinks and I'd call it a night. And sometimes I'd go out and it'd be like 2 AM and I'd be at the kebab truck. You know, like, I just I couldn't really make sense of it. And so, you know, I had this kind of long personal journey to figuring out my own relationship with alcohol and what was going on and understanding you know that it was really more than just I like to drink. It was more than what I thought for a long time is oh maybe I have an addictive personality And and then, you know, kind of took that and decided, you know, I actually wanna help people with this because at, you know, at that time, there just didn't feel like there was a lot out there, beyond the kind of traditional 12 step approaches.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that you echo the inner dialogue of so many people that are listening here. I know that from my own experience, I kinda went from college like you said. You know, I'm just going out and doing things. I remember saying to myself, like, this is the only time that it's socially acceptable to just overindulge and be a little wild.
Speaker 1:And then as I got into more professional settings and wanted to do better and but still not lose a part of that identity too. Did you feel like you sort of in that transition, that identity had to shift?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, yes and no. I mean, in a way, I feel like the my own journey, I I feel like I actually as I've done this work and changed my relationship with alcohol, have become more of who I am, more of myself because I no longer see it as, like, well, this is my only chance to overindulge, or this is my this is the only way that I can feel you know, not feel awkward in social situations. I you know, doing this work, it wasn't really just about, okay, how do I learn how to work with my cravings and my urges and have more self control. It was really about how do I have these the tools and the resources that I need so I don't feel like I'm always missing out or I don't feel like well, there's no you know, I remember thinking a lot like, I'm not gonna drink.
Speaker 2:There is no point in going. Right? Like, why would I even bother? So so I really do feel like, you know, along the way, I, you know, I kind of returned more to a version of myself when I was younger. Right?
Speaker 2:That, like, just felt more free and more kind of, like, able to be who I was and not care what people thought and be silly and spontaneous. And, you know, I feel like it almost kind of brought me full circle in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's awesome. And we're gonna talk about your archetypes and sort of the philosophy that you have. But before we do, you know, you shared a little bit of your story. Can you share about what your drinking sort of was at the point that you really weren't unhappy and what it looks like today, and what sort of, like, your philosophy is with the people that you work with.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Also, the first thing I'll just say that my philosophy for the people that I work with is really to let them decide what feels like a good sustainable relationship for them. So it's not like, I'm really not about, you know, what is you know, actually, you'd be better off and so much healthier and so much more virtuous if you just never drank again. Right? Or telling people, like, this, you know, these are the guidelines.
Speaker 2:This is the quantity or the amount. Right? That that, you know, the CDC says it's the right amount. I really think it needs to be an individual journey that also can change and shift over time. And that is my story for sure.
Speaker 2:You know a lot of people that I work with you know they sometimes want to start out with experimenting with alcohol free periods and that was something for me that was an important part for me like I you know I knew that I wanted to just have, like, a period away from alcohol for a bit, but I wasn't saying I'm never gonna drink again. And in fact, because that's so much of the traditional approach is, like, listen, if you have a problem, you can never drink again. I think that kept me from examining my drinking for a long time because it felt like, well, if I can't figure this out, I'm gonna be, like, 80 years old. Right? I'm, like, not allowed to drink.
Speaker 1:A 100%. I'm right there with you. It prolonged it Yeah. So much.
Speaker 2:So now, you know, I always talk about people wanting to, like, you know, maybe you wanna drink less, you wanna drink rarely, you wanna experiment with alcohol free periods, maybe you wanna stop, maybe you decide you wanna take it out. Like, I think there's a lot of space, not only for people to figure out what's right for them, but to move in and out of those places. I am in the place now of rarely drinking. It's something that occasionally I partake in, but it's not it's just not it's not something that I often want to kind of gravitate towards. A lot of that has to do with work that I've done around mindful drinking and really understanding, like, how do I stay present and how do I, how do I actually differentiate between, like, am I really liking this?
Speaker 2:Or, you know, am I just kind of in this place of, like, wanting more and more is better? But, you know, the more that I have done that work there around mindful drinking, the the the more I've realized, like, I actually don't when I drink, I don't want that much. Yeah. Which, by the way, is mind blowing for me because I've I was like, I am missing an off switch in my brain. More is always better.
Speaker 2:I was always the one, right, the fastest one to finish their drink. I was just, I was just with some friends from college. We were taking, like, a little girl's vacation together. And I remember just being like, oh, I'm the slowest one. Like, I'm the slowest one having a drink here, which, like, the idea that I could make that transformation seemed impossible when I was in a place of, like, I don't know.
Speaker 2:This is just who I am. I always want more. You know, I'm missing this off switch. I, you know, I don't have an ability to rein myself in.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I felt like that, and I drink everything fast. And, I mean, if somebody were to ask, what well, help me don't mix drink mixed drinks. I'm like, because I drink everything fast. It doesn't matter if it's coffee, but definitely that.
Speaker 1:And I knew at least, I was at least mindful enough to know that at the time. Okay. So and I love what you say. So set your own goals. Nothing is permanent.
Speaker 1:We're always growing. We're always changing and evolving. I mean, I can relate to what you said. I went from nightly drinker to long stints of not drinking to moderation, and now I just seldom drink all that much. And and I'll go long periods without be planning it, without saying never or whatever.
Speaker 1:So I love the fact that you can just choose your own goal. It's not do as I say. Whatever feels like too much or the right amount, you get to choose that.
Speaker 2:So Yeah. You get to
Speaker 1:choose this conversation. You get
Speaker 2:to choose and you get to change your mind. And I think that that's a really hard thing for, a lot of people to wrap their brains around because it really is the opposite message that we get. Right? It's kind of like either you drink or you don't. Right?
Speaker 2:And if you make a decision to say no, you're making a decision forever. Right? So we don't allow for this kind of fluidity. We don't allow for that. And and, you know, I think most people find it incredibly freeing when they realize, like, oh, wait.
Speaker 2:This is up to me. And I get to decide, and I can experiment, and I can change my mind, and that's okay. It doesn't mean that I failed or I'm doing something wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Or, also, I'll toss in your either, quote, unquote, normal or your problematic.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. Right? Like, we have this very black and white, we have this very black and white way of talking about people who struggle with saying no, and it, you know, it falls just into these black and white categories instead of really understanding, like, it's a spectrum, and also it can change. It can change, you know, when things change in your life.
Speaker 2:It can change with different circumstances with age. Right? And, like, it doesn't have to just be like, oh, nope. Sorry. You, like, you gotta wear this label.
Speaker 2:It's right kind of like, you've gotta wear the label. You're the you're the, you know, problematic drinker. I I we to just observe and and understand, like, there's more gray in this. There's more gray in this spectrum.
Speaker 1:A 100%. I'm right there with you. So let's jump into it because I don't want anybody to be on their edge of the seat too long. So you've made up this thing or you created this thing called the drink archetypes. And why don't you start?
Speaker 1:Like, what what inspired you to start and create this framework?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, part of it was working with so many different people. And so really just observing all the different ways that humans have learned to use alcohol. Part of it was also wanting to help explain, like, well, why is it? Like, why do a lot of people have the experience that their drinking looks different in different situations?
Speaker 2:Right? That it's not always across the board, you know, a 100% of the time looks exactly the same. And I you know, the more that I worked with people, the more I started to kind of see these patterns. And I was for a long time, I I kind of knew that the patterns existed, and it was very much a part of how I worked with people. But I didn't have a way, at that point to really kind of help people identify themselves and help people use these archetypes.
Speaker 2:Right? It was kind of something that I could see when I was working with people, but, you know, wasn't able they couldn't see it necessarily. And so, you know, coming up with the archetypes was really I mean, it was really after almost a decade of working with people and so many people and seeing so many different patterns and figuring out, like, I I want to help people be able to understand their drinking in different situations. So the archetypes, it's not even like, oh, you're this type. Right?
Speaker 2:Pete, you can have multiple archetypes. They can change in different situations. They can change over time. It's really helping you understand, you know, how are you using the drink. Right?
Speaker 2:What is your brain seeing beyond just, well, that's my favorite drink, or I like how it tastes. Right? What is the kind of unconscious patterns going on there? Because if you understand what they are, it helps really with figuring out how do I intervene. Right?
Speaker 2:Why does it feel difficult to say no? Why am I drinking more in some situations around some people than with others?
Speaker 1:Got it. So why don't we get into and you can help me with this question, breaking down the different archetypes and why they're significant and maybe some of the telltale signs that we should look for or somebody can identify with and why it's important. And I know I threw in a lot of double bear questions there for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's why I'm saying you helped me walk through this, answering this question.
Speaker 2:So, there are 8 different archetypes. And, again, these can change. Right? You may see yourself in multiple ones. It's very, very normal.
Speaker 2:So the first one is the upgrade archetype. It's about using a drink to kind of elevate a situation or or make make an event feel special. There's also the connector archetype, which is all about kind of, either creating or maintaining bonds and feeling close with people. There's the reward. The reward archetype is something that, I work with a lot of people on.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like, I had a long day. Rough hate. I just wanna kind of treat myself because I've been working hard, and I'm dealing with everything at work, and I'm dealing with my kids and right? It it's that sense of using it as a as a, reward for yourself. There's also the escape.
Speaker 2:So the escape is a little bit more around, like, I don't wanna feel these feelings. Right? It's it's trying to avoid certain emotions, often kind of these kind of big bigger kind of hairier emotions that were that were like, oh, I don't wanna feel that. There is also the mask. So the mask archetype, this is one that came up for me quite a bit in college, which is like, I don't wanna feel awkward in social situations.
Speaker 2:Right? I just wanna feel at ease. I just wanna feel confident. So, you know, your brain sees the drink as a way to deal with anxiety that you might have in social situation. There's also the hourglass.
Speaker 2:The hourglass is kind of an interesting one because it can, appear when someone has a lot of time on their own. Right? So a lot of kind of downtime, and it's just like, I don't know. Drinking is better than, you know, doing this or it makes, like, my evenings more entertaining. It can also appear when you might be in situations where you're not enjoying who you're with.
Speaker 2:Right? You don't you're kind of like, I don't really like what I'm doing. I don't like who I'm hanging out with, but, you know, I can make this more enjoyable if I drink. And then there's the release and the remedy. So the release is also another one that especially for me in my twenties that I really connected to this one.
Speaker 2:I was so fixated on, like, trying to be perfect and do everything right and, you know, be, like, the best at my job and all you know, just, like, always focused on, everybody else. And the release was like, oh, this is my time when I can just stop caring. Right? I don't have to care what, you know, I'm saying or doing or, how I'm feeling. Like, it was just kind of like throwing everything off.
Speaker 2:And then finally, the remedy is all about the times where people might use a drink to deal with insomnia or if injury or dealing with chronic pain. And and so, again, it it's really about using the archetypes to figure out, okay. So what is my desire about in this situation? Yes. Perhaps your brain has learned it's 5 o'clock and you, you know, this is what we do at 5 o'clock.
Speaker 2:We pour a drink. Yes. There's that piece of it, but I I'm always I'm always kind of trying to help people to look a little bit beyond that and and kind of understand, you know, is there something else going on here? Right? What does the drink represent?
Speaker 2:Because a lot of times when people wanna say no or they, you know, they're trying to either say no or they're trying to moderate, what will happen is that the archetype will kind of bubble up. Right? It will kind of be like, well, things don't feel special or I you know, this is what we do when we watch the game. And now I don't feel like, you know, I'm hanging like, I don't feel I feel like I'm on the outside looking in. Right?
Speaker 2:And so what will kind of bubble up, in your attempts to say no or to moderate is often very, very connected to the archetype that's been activated.
Speaker 1:Nah. I love that. And thanks for the breakdown. I actually thought of something fun as you were going through this. What do you think about maybe breaking down or identifying some archetypes to my previous drinking behaviors?
Speaker 1:And maybe you could tell me where it lines up. So I first one, I could say the mask a little bit because even though I'm social and I like to go out, I would feel definitely in college, for sure, when we go to a bar and the guys would all split off and you kinda have to go and mingle and meet people, I would definitely use it like that. So the mask like that. But as I got older, you know, I was starting multiple companies. I was an entrepreneur, so I was, like, burning the candle on both ends.
Speaker 1:And the only way I could say it's quitting time and stop working and stop letting my thoughts go and just sit down and maybe, like, watch some TV was to open that bottle of wine. Yeah. Which one would that like?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, I mean, it's interesting. Like, it it could be a mix of the reward or the escape. So a lot of times with the reward, it's like, okay. Day is done.
Speaker 2:Right? Like, my day is over because I I got myself a beer. I poured myself a glass of wine. So it's kind of setting a boundary. That's what often happens with the reward archetype.
Speaker 2:It's like alcohol becomes this boundary that you don't even realize. It's like, no, I don't have to think about work. Right? Or sometimes people will be like, okay, well, I have to keep working. Right?
Speaker 2:Like, I have more emails to get back to, but, like, at least I have a treat. Like, at least I get to, like, respond to these emails at 9 o'clock. Right? And I have a drink by my side. Sometimes if it's like that desire to really shut off your brain, like, I just wanna stop thinking about work.
Speaker 2:Right? And I, like, can't. Right? I I I try to sit down and, you know, turn on Netflix, and I'm still thinking about these things. And maybe it's work.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's family. Right? Sometimes that can be a little bit of the escape. Right? And so it's like you're you're kind of going through the day maybe with all this pent up overwhelm or all this pent up anxiety.
Speaker 2:Right? And it it's not it it it's like when you stop working, all of a sudden it's like, oh, now it's just there. So, you know, it depends. But, I I think that that what you describe is so very common, especially for people who are, like, managing so much. Right?
Speaker 2:They've got so much going on. And it's just like, hey. This is how I stop working and stop thinking about how everything that has been on my mind during the day.
Speaker 1:What about that's really awesome. And, it's helpful, though, because you kinda break it down in, you know, what you're actually doing at a deeper level than just saying, oh, this is what I do. What about people that, like, let's say you have a stressful day or you have an argument with the spouse or girlfriend, and you're like, you know, eff it. I'm just gonna go get myself a drink. Where where did that fall?
Speaker 2:Again, you know, one of the things that I really think and it really helps for people to kind of familiarize familiarize themselves with the archetypes and kind of see because there can be overlap. But sometimes that kind of, like, f it can tend to be the release. Right? It can tend to be just like, I don't wanna I don't wanna think about any of this. Right?
Speaker 2:I'm just kind of and the release often, what often shows up is drinking a lot, drinking really quickly. Like, that sense of, like, when you when that archetype is activated, you are not so into mindful drinking because you're like, no. The whole point is I don't wanna be here. Right? Like, I remember that.
Speaker 1:I used to say, I don't want one beer. I want 4 to 6 beers, at least.
Speaker 2:Right. And so but then it's this really interesting thing of, like, Why do I want 4 to 6? Right? What's going like, what is it that if I have, like, 1 or 2, I'm like, this is not doing the trick. And, of course, we can have conversations about tolerance, right, and how tolerance can increase.
Speaker 2:But a lot of times what people will find, especially with the release and the escape archetypes, is they're like, Yeah. Wondering is not gonna cut it for what I'm seeking right now. And, again, like, it can be the escape. Sometimes, you know, you're you're angry at your spouse and it's like or your partner and you're just like, I just don't wanna be present with it. Sometimes it can also show up, a little bit with the release of that idea of using a drink to rebel.
Speaker 2:Right? So sometimes having a drink is a little bit like giving a middle finger to someone. So but it it just really depends. Right? And it's not so much about, like, okay.
Speaker 2:Like, this is, you know, like, this is the specific archetype in it. It's more of using them as a way to understand what is going on here beyond just this desire to drink. Right? Like, what what else is kind of underneath the surface? Because when you understand that, it really helps you.
Speaker 2:If you wanna change, it helps you figure out how am I gonna intervene differently in those situations. Because intervening, you know, when you're dealing with feeling awkward, right, socially, with your desire is very different than intervening when you're having that kind of, like, eff it moment. Right? But, like, for me, I was just like, I'm just I knew those nights in retrospect where I was just like, oh, no. With 2 drinks is not gonna do it.
Speaker 2:Right? Like, I just I want to have all the drinks. So how you kind of intervene and work with yourself in those different situations is gonna change.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I like the way you break it down because it's not like it's an archetype where it's that's me. It's more like, yeah. I do that, and I I do that. You know?
Speaker 1:If you read, like, a horoscope, you might hear it and then be like, yeah. Okay. That's me. Yeah. That's me.
Speaker 1:Like but, so you go through these, and I think it brings awareness to what your actual behaviors are in the deeper level of, like, where it starts and what your actions end up, doing because of that. What's, like, the next step? Once you familiarize yourself and your understanding these, where do you take it next from there?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, one of the things, well, one thing I would do wanna add, I think it's really important that the archetypes are not they're not reflective of problematic drinking. Right? So they're not a sign of, like, oh, like, you're it was one of the archetypes. Like, I'm doing something bad.
Speaker 2:This is a problem. They're reflective of how, like, humans, how our species has learned to use alcohol. Right? And so you can see yourself in an archetype and also not be drinking that much. Right?
Speaker 2:So I I just think that's an important kind of piece, right, to see it as, like, oh, this doesn't mean, like, it's a problem. It really is just, like, oh, this is just, like, the different ways. Right? That humans over 1000 of years have been, like, well, this is what we can use a drink for.
Speaker 1:Can I just throw something in there? Because I've taken one of those random tests that you Google for around AUD and all of that. And, you know, I'm looking at it even in retrospect, and I'm like, 90% of the people that I know, unless they're the type that have, like, 1 or 2 drinks a year, probably could answer multiple multiple of these questions, and it came out as problematic when I took it. My wife who has zero problem with alcohol, took it, and it also told her. So it's like, you know, even these other things that you look at, I think you gotta realize that it's not it's a it's a behavior, but it's not necessarily an indication.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's not necessarily an indication. Right? Like, it really is just meant to be like, let's just understand that there's something going on here beyond just I like the way it tastes or I like the way it makes me feel. Right?
Speaker 2:And and I think the other thing with, you know, we just we just love to pathologize things. We love to kind of, like, throw around labels. And I and to me, that's, like, part of the problem and limits the conversation because we're so often either, like, demonizing alcohol or pathologizing. Right? But it's like, oh, your brain is different.
Speaker 2:There's something wrong with your brain. Or moralizing. Right? And that that can go either way. It's like, oh, it's so virtuous not to drink.
Speaker 2:Like, I often talk with people how that and by the way, I fell into that too during periods of not drinking. But feeling very virtuous can sometimes backfire. Right? Because you're sitting there feeling like, oh, I'm being so healthy. Look at me.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna wake up and feel great tomorrow. But I wasn't acknowledging there were you know, because I, at that point, wasn't dealing with the archetypes that were underneath that I was, like, feeling like I was missing out. Right? So I was, like, really relying on feel like, using it as a way to feel good about myself that I was saying no. But guess what happens then the next time?
Speaker 2:Right? Either you you wake up and you're like, oh, I had too much to drink. Right? It becomes like, oh, so now I was bad. Right?
Speaker 2:So we get into this place of moralizing, you know, and making it this this thing about who we are as a person rather than just recognizing, like, alcohol has been with humans for 1000 of years. Right? Like, we don't need to we don't need to demonize or moralize or pathologize in order to actually help people have healthier relationships with it.
Speaker 1:No. I love that. And to sort of summarize this, you're saying that we can identify sort of these certain types of behaviors, and we can change them in the hope that by changing them in this way, we're not gonna feel deprived or that we're missing out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because, listen, if you feel deprived, if you feel like you're missing out, it's very hard, right, Like, to stick with whatever you're doing. It's kinda like a diet. Right? People are like, okay.
Speaker 2:I can follow a diet for a limited period of time. But if you're always, like, looking at what everybody else is eating, wishing you were eating that. Right? Most people invariably are gonna give in. And I think what happens is a lot of people have the experience of, you know, either they set rules for themselves or they do a dry January.
Speaker 2:Right? So they go into this a little bit of this diet mentality, and they're, like, kind of, okay. I can do it. But then, eventually, they kind of return to old patterns. And they make it mean, oh, see, something's wrong with me.
Speaker 2:Right? I guess, really, like, I'm the problem here. But the reason you return to old problems is because you're not actually dealing with the the big picture. Right? You're not looking at the full picture of your drinking.
Speaker 2:It's just like, okay. I I just have to follow this rule. Right? And and so I always think, like, you know, like, counting drinks and dry January's and drink plans, like, all of this can be amazing. But when people are in this place of, like, following it but always feeling deprived, following it, always feeling like they're missing out, following it, feeling like they're sitting at the kids' table.
Speaker 2:That's not a way to really create long term lasting change.
Speaker 1:I love that. I think that's a great place to leave off because deprivation or being deprived is very much linked with willpower, which is what we're gonna talk about in the next episode. But before we do, and somebody wants to find out more about your drink archetypes, where where can they go?
Speaker 2:So you can go to my site, rachelhart.com. You can take a quiz there, and it will give you kind of a a breakdown of your primary and secondary archetypes and the ones you kind of lean more most towards. You can also just go to my site and read up on the archetypes and learn about them there.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's amazing. That wraps up today's episode of Journey to the Sunnyside. Huge thanks to Rachel Hart for breaking down these drink archetypes and showing us how they can impact our drinking habits. Don't miss out on the next episode where Rachel's back to talk about why relying on willpower isn't the key to changing your drinking habits and what actually works. Trust me, you won't wanna miss this.
Speaker 1:If today's episode got you thinking about your own habits, head on over to sunnyside.co and take our 3 minute quiz to get personal insights into your drinking habits. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram at sunnyside for daily tips, inspiration, and success stories. If you liked what you heard, hit the subscribe button so so you don't miss out on any future episodes. And until next time, keep taking those small steps for a more mindful relationship with alcohol.
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