Do I Deserve to Drink? Unpacking the Reward Loop w/ Ian Andersen
Welcome to Journey to the Sunny Side, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and of course, your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. I'm your host, Mike Hardinbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert.
Speaker 2:Okay. Today we're going to do something totally different. I have Ian Anderson, one of the cofounders here at Sunnyside. Ian is a good friend and colleague, and we're gonna try a different format with some questions that we hear often in the community. And so before we get started, though, if anybody hasn't listened to some of the episodes with Ian, I'm gonna give him the floor a minute just to talk about his involvement and history here at Sunnyside.
Speaker 3:Awesome. I'm excited to be back, Mike. So I am one of the cofounders of Sunnyside. I started this company five years ago with my cofounder Nick Allen. And I come from a family deeply impacted by alcohol as I would say many of the people that we work with and come across within this business have been have similar stories.
Speaker 3:But I and I went through my own journey cutting back on drinking starting around 02/2018. And today, I call myself a mindful drinker, a practicing mindful drinker, always kind of curious and experimenting. So I am thrilled to be back.
Speaker 2:Awesome. And, you know, it's okay to self promote here, but one of the things I love about being here at Sunnyside is that everybody actually has a direct connection in one way or another, either through a family member or their own experience, and can relate, empathize, sympathize, and understand any of our users' struggles, successes, and anything in between.
Speaker 3:I 100% agree with you. Obviously, we're running a company, but at the end of the day, this is incredibly mission driven for us. Everybody at Sunnyside cares deeply about what's what we're trying to do. You're you're
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Put the nail on the head now, including yourself.
Speaker 2:You feel the energy. So okay. So we're gonna go in this new format or just no scripted questions. Nothing. We just have a topic, and you and I discussed a few ones that maybe we could talk about.
Speaker 2:So I'm gonna toss it your way to open discussion on maybe where where we should go.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was thinking about a topic that has come up in conversation with my brother. I have a twin brother, and so we it's interesting kind of seeing our relationships with alcohol over the years going to college and stuff like that. And something that he said to me that has stuck with me and something that I think about and something that I then thought maybe that comes from my family's history with alcohol and that is do I deserve to drink? Do I deserve this drink?
Speaker 3:Do I deserve a drink today? And so that was the set that's the topic. I can I can happily dive in to some Yeah?
Speaker 1:Go for it. Because I think that that
Speaker 2:I I let's leave it open ended because it can be answered either in a situational way or as a philosophical way for how you're leading your life.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Let's let's try to address both of those. But I wanna Yeah. As as we were as I was reflecting on this topic, I started thinking about my dad. And he is a person that has been deeply influential for me and he was thirty years sober before he passed away a couple years ago.
Speaker 3:But the relationship with alcohol that he developed when I was a very young boy was to come home from work and have beers, lots of beers. And I'm guessing that he got into this habit where he felt like he deserved that, where he was putting in a hard day's work. And, yeah, it was a very hard day's work. And something about how hard that was, maybe how hard family life felt compelled him to feel like that he actually deserved that dream. I'm not saying he did or didn't.
Speaker 3:I do have ideas on that, mostly reflecting it in with my own experience. And this is not really my deep area of expertise but it does make me wonder how much of that I inherited over time. I mean, I literally watched patterns of my dad doing his job in construction and coming home and drinking or even constructing and drinking at at the same time kind of like as a reward in the moment. Now the reason I'm saying that so much is because or leaning leaning into that sort of that story is because I love getting my hands dirty. Every weekend, Mike, I think you know this, I'm fixing something at my house.
Speaker 3:And recently, last weekend, was we're we're fixing our deck. We're re staining it. Just for anyone that's in the middle of re staining their deck, I feel you. It is a laborious, selfless process. And I've had this sort of trigger for years where hard work outside in the sun makes me feel like I really deserve to have a beer.
Speaker 3:I think this pretty slow for me that I've worked on identifying over the years is making sure I'm not using that as an excuse to drink. I think in my mind, the do I deserve and then the slippery slope of actually I'm gonna say I deserve it but it's really just an excuse to drink. It's kind of mixed up in my mind and actually something that has been kind of hard to uncouple and I realize what I'm admitting I guess is I have absolutely used that like I deserve a drink to actually get more drinks in that situation. So yeah, there's probably a lot to unpack there but those are the kind of the two, there's a lot there. There's like family history, there's patterns and habits sort of inherited and yeah me today I still associate like hard work working outside with having a cold beer and then I just have to be careful like my pattern is that I have a hard time stopping and we've recognized after thousands and thousands of conversations with community members at Sunnyside that people are very different when they're with their relationship to alcohol, but definitely one of the most common ones is like, I don't drink often, but when I do drink, I have a hard time stopping.
Speaker 3:And that's I'm happy to happy to admit that that's category I fall into.
Speaker 2:Totally. I mean, I can relate there. I think after a long week, and it was a busy week, that feeling of I deserve this. It's Friday. I've worked hard.
Speaker 2:I've stayed to my commitments and or just anything like you said, like, being out for me, like, a a long mountain bike ride, maybe out in the sun. You might have that feeling, like, even if it wasn't even planned, you're like, you know, it's one of those days I've been out all day. I worked really hard. I sweated hard. I deserved this.
Speaker 2:But, you know, as I do this podcast a lot and I think and write about this stuff a lot, I think the underlying question that we're really seeking and asking ourselves as in, like, do I deserve this? It's more Or at the end of that long day of you staining your deck or me riding a bike or a long day of work it's like what are we really seeking? Is it the drink that like we feel like we deserve or is it relief after a long week of work or is it maybe you have some accomplishments during the week? Is are you seeking to celebrate or are you seeking the drink itself? Because I think that if you deserve it and you're okay and you ask yourself the questions like, if I have this drink how I'm going
Speaker 1:to feel
Speaker 2:afterwards as in tomorrow or how am I going to feel because if it aligns, to where I want to go and the answer is just fine, yeah I think you do deserve it. It's fine. It does fill that need and it doesn't have any potential consequences in your mind, you know, of course. But I think get if it if it doesn't align then, then what are you really seeking that you can replace it? You know what I mean?
Speaker 3:I I'm right there with you. 10,000 foot answer on this is both. I deserve the drink. I also sometimes don't deserve the drink. I think it's a very personal question.
Speaker 3:Obviously, like it sounds like a simple question, we're saying it because for some people it has a deep sort of connection with their habits. So I agree with you. I think one way well, I agree with you in that a lot of times after a really hard day of work, a drink can be it can help you relax. Like we have to admit that like or not admit but like it's just true that alcohol does serve a certain purpose in people's lives which is a lot of times it's socializing and relaxing. We just have to make sure that we do it mindfully and definitely in moderation.
Speaker 3:And so, I do enjoy having a drink after a hard days of work but there are sort of different strategies I've put in place over the years to make sure that I don't just fall into kind of silly, stupid habits. Sorry. I shouldn't I probably shouldn't say it that way. That's that's me judging myself. Habits that don't serve me well, I I should say.
Speaker 3:And one simple thing that I do, and I and I mean this, is when I'm when I want a drink after when I wanna drink at the end of a hard day, have it with my wife. Have a drink with my wife. And therefore, it takes it from this, like, self celebration to this more social thing where we can cheers and like I can really be in the moment, enjoying that drink. And so I think we have to kind of look at strategies for how and these are very individual on how we can deserve that drink, enjoy that drink, and make sure that it doesn't turn into something different, like an excuse to kind of do something that's not as beneficial to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. A %. I mean, I think if we were to put a hypothetical scenario where somebody's saying, you know, you know, I said on Friday I wasn't gonna drink, but I deserve it. It's been this kind of week. Listen.
Speaker 2:You put that rule in place. You're an adult. Like, if you want to remove it because this consequence seems low, you're you can do that without judging yourself because if it aligns to what you see yourself, even if it changed in in in the moment, you know, with a little bit of planning and thought, I think that sort of approaching those those moments instead of looking for permission from yourself, you should seek alignment with yourself. And Asking yourself, Okay, I do deserve this, but am I asking myself permission or am I aligning to what I want? Because if you do align to what you want, then you're not really the consequence isn't something that you need a permission yes or no answer to, but it's easier to say yourself, you know what, this actually doesn't align to who I want to be.
Speaker 2:This if I think about, okay I want to celebrate this week but if I have this drink because I made a commitment then tomorrow I'm not going to feel good about myself and that doesn't even I don't mean just on a hangover sense like let's just say you have one or two, but the next day you're like, you know what? I feel disappointed in myself. This didn't align with myself. Then what you were seeking to celebrate kind of was nullified by not aligning with kinda what you've been planning and seeing yourself as the best version.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You're you're making me think a lot about a period. So 2018 time frame, I was working at a company, and I've I've talked about this in previous podcasts, was drinking quite a bit and my outlet for that was happy hours at work. And so I got into this bad loop where I would tell myself I deserved a drink but in reality it was kind of just to go get drunk at happy hour and I was kind of stuck in this loop for a while and when I really started to make and, you know, so I took a couple months off of drinking and you've talked about taking time off of drinking in the podcast. I had to really reframe what happy hours looked like for me.
Speaker 3:And I for better or or for lack of a better way to put it, I sort of like retrained myself to plan a lot better when I went out to happy hour so that I could have one drink with my colleagues, and kinda get that sort of satisfaction of deserving that drink without doing something that I I knew wasn't in line, aligned with my current motivations and and goals for my health and well-being which had really changed. So, if if you're feeling, I would say to our listeners, if you're feeling like you're in a place where it's hard for you to have that just just that one drink, but you are trying to improve your health and wellness goals, really think about putting a plan in place before you go and and have that drink and kind of do a mental assessment exactly what you're saying, Mike, about what the impact might be the next day. If you're if you're sure that you deserve that drink, then that's totally fine. At Sunnyside, we do not look down on drinking. We just wanna make sure people are do in moderation and and doing it mindfully.
Speaker 3:But yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people would be be able to relate to my story. It it's just like I I know others who have been in that situation where you start to turn in this, like, deserving of one drink into many, maybe multiple times a drink a week like I was. And for for me, it just it turned into something that was untenable and unhealthy, and I feel very fortunate that I took that time off of drinking.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It can be a slippery slope, especially in that frame of mind because you deserve it, you act on it, you feel good, and when you feel good, who doesn't want more of feeling good? And sometimes, you know, in that frame of mind, well, I deserve it, so you move a little bit further than maybe you would on a Tuesday night because Tuesday maybe you don't feel like you deserve it. You know? And and then all of a sudden, it might be a frame of mind, well, I'm already at this point.
Speaker 2:May as well just go all the way in because you're not making the best choices at that point.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Mike, I have a I a question for you. If somebody is in this mindset where they feel like they are deserving of a drink, but they know that it's going against their current health and wellness goals. You did talk lot about this in the last podcast about boredom which I think aligns really tightly with this in a lot of ways.
Speaker 3:Do you have any practices that people might put into place in that moment to try let it and we can call that an urge or a craving. Not not to put you on the spot.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I do. So number one is, like, if if we're framing it in this discussions around reward bay it's a reward based system around alcohol. So think you need to stop looking at alcohol as a reward based solution. So I think you know potentially thinking what that through is and then as I kind of mentioned before is to really dig a layer deeper and see what are you really seeking, you know, because if you're already at a point where I think you're wanting to reduce the amount that you're drinking, it's probably not about just the taste of it for one for half a drink and sip it and feel good and then put it away.
Speaker 2:So, like, you really you might enjoy the taste, but it's not all about the taste. Like, let's be honest for most people
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That are trying to reduce and, you know, be more mindful for their drinking. So I think really it's about reframing it about, like, I deserve that. Well, what do you really deserve? What do you really want? You know?
Speaker 2:And what else what else can you put in place for it because you don't wanna use that as your one and only go to reward.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I I wanna just reflect on that. Like, I I think that for me, what I learned okay. So after I took that time off of drinking, I started therapy and I started meditating. And those were both, really instrumental for me to, pull back from just, like, day to day habits and, like, just, like, do some work myself.
Speaker 3:What I think I realized and I'm still kinda working on this is drinking helps me kind of turn my brain off. I I just have a really hard time stopping working. I work in sort of digital marketing so like my brain's constantly turning over and over when I'm my wife knows this. Like, I literally when work is over on Friday, I'll just hop over and do health projects. And she's like, can you just relax?
Speaker 3:And I don't know where this comes from. It could be, like, trauma related. It could be family inherited. But like, I realized I was using alcohol to kind of turn those turn that activity off, to quiet things down a little bit. And I think similarly so I'm going a little bit off of the do I deserve this path, but I would just say these days I found, even though I'm 40, found that video games actually offer a very similar escape for me.
Speaker 3:And so I've actually started playing video games more and I I actually love that I've kinda learned that that gives me a similar sort of release and escape and just kinda winding things down. There's obviously like a whole list of things people can try. And then for me at the end of a work day working outside on the house, like you were asking like what are you really looking for? I think it's just like relaxing. Just straight up like relaxing and trying to wind the brain down after working.
Speaker 3:So I'm still kind of balancing that out. Like, what is that for me? But these days, I think it's like an NA beer. A non alcoholic beer absolutely gets really close to solving the same problem, or, like, doing the same trick in terms of, that ritual.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I get the same thing and, you know, I talked to doctor Jason Kilmer about this, about how people actually feel pretty instantly relaxed after they have a sip of their drink even though alcohol hasn't entered their bloodstream in any amount that would do that. So like there's certainly that placebo effect where if you think it's gonna be good and you think it's gonna relax you, it will. I've experienced it myself all the time almost you know, most of the times when I drink NA beers because I don't drink a ton of them. When I do, I kinda get that.
Speaker 2:Like, I'm in chill mode. I'm having it. I'm having this. And, you know, I relayed a % because that was that was my biggest problem is that I was an entrepreneur in my late 20s and I was always hustling. I was in the hustle culture and there was just no way to shut my brain down that I knew of at the time other than opening that bottle of wine.
Speaker 2:Then it was quitting time. Know That was the only way that I could do that.
Speaker 3:And now your brain totally associated those two, and then that's where the doing that over and over just kind of becomes an an ingrained pattern. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. This this cycle was pretty similar to many people. It was wake up, you know, I'd overdo it, wake up the next day. I still got up and got everything done, but I'd feel horrible. I'd feel horrible about myself.
Speaker 2:I'd feel shame about not sticking to my commitment. I'd like, somewhat of a punishment of go for, like, this crazy run and sweat it out, get to work, do everything that I could, dragging through the day. By afternoon, I'd start to feel better, which actually this totally relates to our conversation here. Start to feel better. Get through the day, the afternoon, working, working, working.
Speaker 2:Boy, that was a rough day. I deserve I probably deserve a drink.
Speaker 3:Yep. And
Speaker 2:then the the cycle, you know, it's a hamster wheel. And then you're like, you have one drink, and you feel better. You're like, oh, man. That was such a rough day. I'm finally feeling myself.
Speaker 2:I feel pretty good. I'm having a drink. I got everything done that I needed to do. Totally. And then fast forward through that night, and you wake up and you're like, goddamn it.
Speaker 2:I did it again.
Speaker 3:Totally. 100%. And we're we're laughing about this a little bit, but it's just because we're relating to a topic that we're we we both feel so strongly about and have experienced. And the same thing happened for me at that work in 2018 would be like, Thursdays was happy hour day. Then I'd come into work on Friday, like, obviously, I was okay.
Speaker 3:But if I was hungover by the afternoon and I'm feeling better, I'd be like, alright. I deserve this. I hear some other I I hear some folks over there talking about happy hour. Yeah. I think you just, like, took us full circle there in a really powerful like, really important way that I didn't even see coming.
Speaker 2:You neither. I didn't start that I didn't start that story with that thought, but it's nice when things
Speaker 3:They circle back like that. So maybe that's a perfect place to wrap it up.
Speaker 2:I think so. That was fun. And I like these. And so if anybody's listening and you enjoyed this format, we'll just take a little mini episode on something that we think that would be relatable to the audience, and we'll just talk like this on it. If you like this format, send me an email.
Speaker 2:Let me know what you think or if you have any suggestions, mike@sunnyside.co. And of course, if you're listening and you've got anything out of this episode, please leave us a review. It means a lot and helps other people find the podcast. So, Ian, thanks a lot for coming on today. This was fun.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Mike.
Speaker 1:This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform, having helped hundreds of thousands of people cut out more than 13,000,000 drinks since 2020. And in fact, an independent study showed that Sunnyside reduced alcohol consumption by an average of 30% in ninety days. And as one of our members shared, Sunnyside helps me stay mindful of my drinking habits. It's not super restrictive. So if I'm craving a glass of wine with dinner, I just track it and I move on with my week.
Speaker 1:If you could benefit from drinking a bit less and being more mindful of when and how much you drink, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free fifteen day trial. You'll get access to everything that we offer, including tracking and planning tools, coaching from our experts, a vibrant community of people just like you, and the motivation and advice to stay on track with your health goals, all with no pressure to quit. That's sunnyside.co.
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